9 mm Para for muffler [silencer] (NOT FOR SALE)-X hst Germa


#1

Hi collectors,
I want to show you interesting and very rare paper box of 9 mm Para, which was made during WW2 (1943-45) for German army. In Sellier & Bellot ammunition factory in Vlasim (ak), Czechoslovakia.





#2

Very nice pictures SIG. This is a box well-known to 9 mm specialists, but I don’t
recall ever seeing it on the Forum, although it may have been. It is well-known,
but very scarce. The same “X” headstamp cartridges for use with a “Schalldämpfer”
(silencer) exists on 7.65 x 17 mm Browning (.32 Auto) and was well covered on
either this Forum or the old one.

Thanks for posting these really nice pictures.


#3

When I had just started seriously collecting 9mm cartridges (in 1967) I walked into a gun store in Dayton Ohio and the store owner had one on the shelf. He said it had just come in and what was it worth. I had picked up one of the rounds and I told him I had bought a single cartridge for $10 and thought I’d gotten a bargin. He said, “give me $50 and the box is yours.” I was a Lt at the time so I gave him $10 and told him I’d be back with the rest. Still have the box in my collection, but a lot of people have cartridges out of it in their collections. My first really exciting find as a cartridge collector. It was quite a few years before I found another. This was probably made by Geco (dnh).

Great box!!! Thanks for the photo.

Lew


#4

Please allow me an uneducated question.

The box holds the designation “Parabellum”. I have never seen this designation on German military 9x19 ammunition before.
For whom got these cartridges made?


#5

Lew - are you indicating the “X” headstamp could be from two different factories,
Sellier & Bellot and Geco/RWS? Can anyone confirm that the “X” headstamp was
ever made by Sellier & Bellot? I thought it all was made at one of the Dynamit A.-G factories
(Geco or RWS).

John Moss


#6

EOD - conjecture on my part, but the use of a Quasi-commercial label on this
ammunition could be simply part of the subterfuge of the “X” designation and
headstamp, or it could be because the ammunition was destined for the Police Services.
So many of the services that would use this type of ammunition came under the
authority of Himmler, head of all police services after he wrested control of the GESTOPO
away from Göring, that it could have been a contract for one of them. Again, just conjecture,
based only on many police contract boxes having a semi-commercial style to them. Truth-
fully, I am probably way out of my league even guessing about this stuff, but perhaps it will
prompt a more educated answer from someone else.

John Moss


#7

I have other boxlabels showing Parab. Patr.9mm X. The 7,65 boxes where marked

25

Pist. Patr.
7,65 X


#8

Genkideskan - can you post pictures of the other boxes to fill out the thread.
I have seen a picture of the 7.65 mm box, but the box label posted here is the
only style I have ever seen for the 9 mm. I seen three or four boxes like that
one. Had a chance to buy one, but it was full, and thus too expensive. There are
actually so many of these rounds (9 mm “X”) that I cannot even call the cartridges
scarce. I probably know of a couple of hundred of them - probably enough for every
cartridge collector that would want one. However, the boxes are scarce. I would
love to find an empty one priced accordingly.

Please show any other styles you have.

Thank you

John Moss


#9

Not to forget that recently a 7.92x33 with “X” hs has shown up. Anyone seen the box?


#10

I have heard a number of stories on these loads. One is that they were special loads for Otto Skorzeny unit. As an SS unit (or units) they had a history of buying ammo outside the German Army channels. I have no idea if this is true, but I would expect that this ammo was an SS purchase. Since police generally don’t need silenced ammo it was probably intend for some sort of special operations. Anough has survived the war that it must have been made in some quantity.

Quite a few rounds of this ammo showed in 9mmP ammo that came over to the Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954 from Czechoslavakia and was the proximate cause of the CIA sponsored coup that overthrowed the Arbenz government. A ship load of guns and ammo, all ex WWII German was to Arbenz. Much of it was pretty useless like MG151/20 aircraft cannons and ammunition. There was a lot of 9mmP ammunition. about 30% (of the stuff I saw later) was Czech in sealed boxes, but about 70% was mixed “floor sweepings” that had been packed into 16 rd boxes. I bought 1000 rds and found 10 or 12 “X” headstamped rounds. There was lots of rare rounds including one of only two known (to me) J Roth headstamped 9mm, and the only known 9mm headstamped DWM K (without serifs) with a copper washed steel case.

The fact that sig210’s box was at S&B is not significant. There was obviously lots of German made 9mmP in Cxechoslovakia at the end of WWII. The identification as being a Geco product comes from two “X” headstamped cases found in Germany in the early 1970s loaded with SE bullets. Both loads had the heavy black case mouth seal that is unique to Geco/dnh 9mm SE loads (note that there is an faa load with this cms, but the box indicates they are faa cases loaded by dnh). It is possible that the cases were made elsewhere and loaded by dnh, but the style of the letter is similar to dnh loads and unlike many of the other case manufacturers, like faa, who use much thinner lines. A close examination shows the bullets were original to the case since there is black seal on the case also. The bullet and cms indicates the two cartridges were from 1943 or later.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

The original post says it is from Sellier & Bellot. Where does it say on the box?


#12

The boxes I have seen are unmarked except for the label illustrated. I suspect the box is either at the S&B factory or perhaps at the S&B, exhibit at the local museum. but SIG210 would have to answer that.

Lew


#13

The way I read it, SIG210 is possibly saying, in the opening of this thread, that
the rounds he pictured were made in Sellier and Bellot factory. I personally don’t
think they were, but I am not sure if he means they were made at that factory, or they
are in the factory today. Perhaps he could clarify.

Regarding use by the SS, I agree it is likely. There were many more special operations
units there, I believe, than just Skorzeny’s group, but they might have been made for
him. The Chief of Police of Berlin, whose name escapes me, had a special carbine-like weapon
made specifically for him - a 9 mm Para silenced firearm, by the way. Odd-looking bullpup design with a Luger
magazine used, inserted just ahead of the butt-plate, as I recall. I specifically named Himmler so
(I hoped) it would be understood that I included the SS in the “police” as it was all under the
Reichsführer Himmler’s ultimate command. The German police actually had combat units as well, serving
in the field. It is true that much SS war materiel was contracted for separately and did not come from
Wermacht stores. We also know from boxes for the German Police of 9 mm with the red primer and mouth seals, but
completely military headstamps, that the boxes were closer to a commercial style than to military - I like
to call them “contract boxes” even though I grant the term has no real meaning of its own, if not understood
in the context I am using them. Small calibers, like 7.65 mm Browning, were supplied to police and para-military
units generally in commercial boxes.

John Moss


#14

“the only stipid question is the one unasked”…I will bite…so want does “muffler” mean in the thread title…“9 mm Para for muffler”

?? silencer ???


#15

Pepper - yes, I am sure it does. I do not think English is Sig210’s first language, although he writes it very well. That is why there is question about whether the box is at S&B, or that he meant his information was that the ammunition was made there.

Sig210 - don’t worry about my comments. Your English is fine. Those of us, like me, that are not truly bilingual do terrible things to the European languages all the time, but our friends there understand us, and although probably crying softly to themselves over our slaughter of their languages, accept that communicating is important on a Forum like this; grammar and spelling is not. Keep up the good entries!

Pepper - as an aside, Maxim Silencer Company had offices on the San Francisco Embarcadero (waterfront) for years after WWII (yes, WWII). They sold Mufflers for marine engines.

John M.


#16

this muffler would be a noisy one (considering one side is gone !)

25 ACP

not sure who the manf is/was

couple others in the cabinet at home (.38 or 9 m/m)(sorry for other junk in the photo…but nice .50 cals)


#17

Pepper,

Just like another new posting, your pictures are little boxes with red Xs in the corner, and resist attemps I made to open them. What is going on, administrators?

John Moss


#18

no clue John…I have that occasionally with our web service, but in this case there appears two photos with my post…if not for you…maybe Ron has a tip


#19

Again - now I can see them.

John Moss


#20

The problem of the pictures not showing is caused by two things. 1) the picture has been removed from the source, such as Photobucket or 2) (and this applies to the direct problem above) During times of heavy demand, the server can not supply the picture data fast enough, so a “Broken File” Icon is posted instead. Try again in a few minutes and usually you will see the pictures.