9 Para unknown to me

#1

Hi guys
I can’t understand who produced this 9 Para
Have any of you already met some specimens?
Thanks in advance
Giovanni

1b

1a

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#2

SPC = Sociadade Portuguesa de Cartucheria, Portugal. But at work it means Statistical Process Control to me.

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#3

Hi sksvlad
I thank you for your reply, but I remain in doubt anyway
I had found the establishment you mentioned in the “Culot de munition”
1d1e
but in the headstamp shown the asterisks are missing, the caliber is written differently as the acronym of the company
Looking at the latter carefully it seems to have not letters but symbols
What do you base yourself on for your recognition?
Thanks again
Giovanni

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#4

Giovanni,

Lew Curtis In his book 9mm Parabellum Headstamp & Case Type Guide attributes this to an early headstamp by the Sociadade Portuguesa de Cartucheria . The version of the of the headstamp without the asterisks is thought to be a headstamped cases supplied by DWM to SPC.

Brian

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#5

Bdgreen is correct. The source of both headstamps is Spain and were clearly made for the Spanish Civil War. The DWM rounds are fairly common as are the boxes which show only the caliber. Mixed in these boxes ae DWM headstamps and the SPC cases are clearly DWM. 50 or so years or so a Spanish collector sent me a copy of the cover of a Portugesa catalog for shotshells by Sodiadade Portuguesa de Cartucheria, but since then some very knowledgeable Portuguese collectors have searched hard and can find no record of this company. As a result of my many moves with the USAF since then I have misplaced this cover, possibly lost (as were many other things) on one of the moves. The Spaniard who sent me this cover said it was a company that DWM used to load components sent from Germany.

The round you have is much less common than the DWM round.It comes in a very different box, and is suspected to be rounds made by the company which made reportedly loaded the SPC cases from DWM.

The only known box for your cartridge was found in a Spanish storage bunker by a Spanish Army Ordnance Officer.

Now you know as much as I do.

Cheers,
Lew

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#6

Thanks to both of you
Lew you are a myth, shame about the distance that separates me from many of you … what chats could be done, too bad my terrible English
Of course the enlargement headstamp seems to have characters and not letters above all the “C”, really special as a choice.
The profile of the ball reminds me of 9 Para “G C”
Thank you for your expertise … and patience
Giovanni

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#7

Giovanni, My wife would probably agree with you that I am a myth, just Bull that some people made up!

More seriously,
Below is the box for the SPC headstamp by DWM,

SPC%20box-sml

This is the box for your SPC * 9M/M * cartridge

SPC%20star%209MM%20star%20marking

This packing is very unusual. These S.P.C. * 9M/M * headstamps seem very crudely stamped and are unlikely to be a DWM product. The whole letter style of the headstamp is very different from the DWM product shown below.

In addition, these rounds have a rounded copper primer, while the S.P.C. headstamp shown below has a flat copper primer.
SPC-hst

I was told, by the Spaniard mentioned above, that the primers were made in Portugal. Some have argued that there are DWM headstamped 9mmP with identical copper primers, which is true, but i have never encountered a DWM box with copper primed cartridges. I have found DWM headstamped cartridges with copper primers mixed in the 56 round boxes with the SPC headstamped rounds, and I believe these boxes are the source of the copper primed DWM headstamped rounds.Perhaps someone on the Forum has a DWM box filled with copper primed cartridges.

The 56 round boxes have steel reinforced corners like the WWI vintage German 9mm P08 boxes while the 132 round box has normal cardboard boxes.

An interesting feature of the 132 round box is the M & S 1937 marking on the inside of the box top. The Spanish Civil War, the obvious destination for these cartridges was 1936-1939. The 1937 date on this box would imply it probably was made before the S.P.C. 9mm boxes. What struck me about this marking on the box is how similar it is to the markings stamped in the German 16 rd 9mm P08 boxes of this period and into WWII. Could it be that these cartridges were made by a German company that did not normally make 9mmP???

Does this M & S logo match any known German manufacturer of cartridge boxes?

Does the letter style on this headstamp match the letter style of another cartridge maker?

Another mystery is why a 132 round box??? The 56 rounds boxes are obvious, but 132 rounds does not make sense for any pistols or machine pistols I know of from the period.

Giovanni, your cartridge deserves a lot more study. I have contacted an ammo researcher in Portugal to see if the M&S 1937 means anything. Perhaps it is a registered logo for a company?

I guess this cartridge could have been made in Italy to support Franco! Does the headstamp or the primer match any Italian rounds of any caliber???

I hope someone has the answers or at least leads to follow.

Cheers,
Lew

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#8

Great Lew
even in my humble opinion the headstamp is too “raw” to be German.
Regarding the discovery of the 9th Para SPC, I can only tell you that it is currently in possession of a small museum in northern Italy and was found together with other ammunition dating back to WWII, therefore an acquisition certainly not from the later period.
If you can be of assistance regarding the coppered convex primer used on Italian short cartridges this is what I can say:
these are the Italian cartridges, known to me with this primer
a1 a2
as you can see they are all for civil use (without date) only the first two are 9 para but both have truncated cone ball and in Italy we have no data of either and we do not know the production period

Interestingly, the only other two are 6.35 B
also with no date
%20LECCO%20pri%20rame 6%2C35%20Browning%20LBC%20%C2%B0%20M%20%C2%B0%20p%20ott%20nichelato%20pri%20rame
The LBC also shows the M brand
because produced in collaboration with the French “SFM”
These are SFM products
30%20GG%202%20a%20salve 7%2C65%20MAS%20lungo%20SFM%201927%20%20p%20nich%20b%20ott
I therefore think that this type of primer is to be positioned at most around this date (in 1932 a flat brass primer was already used)
It should be noted that Fiocchi used Copper primers but plates and only in 1916-1918
7%2C63%20Mauser%20FIOCCHI%201916 7%2C65%20Browning%20FIOCCHI%201918 8%20Steyr%20no%20mark%20FIOCCHI%201918%20(2)
7,63 Mauser 1916 ----------7,65 Br 1918 ------------------------8Steyr no /H
9%20Frommer%20FIOCCHI%201918%20crimpata%20%20(2) 9%20Steyr%20no%20mark%20FIOCCHI%201918 9%20x%2023%20Steyr%20FIOCCHI%201918
9 Frommer 1918 ---------------9 Steyr no /H --------------9 Frommer 1918

I hope I have been helpful and I await the developments of the discussion

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#9

Ciao Giovanni!

Io non credo che la lettera “M” sulla marca del bossolo della cartuchia de calibro 6.35 mm significa parte del nome di Soçiete Française des Munitions, della Francia. Invece credo che significa il nome “Milano,” la Città dov’è la Fabbrica Leon Beaux.

I don’t believe that the letter “M” on the headstamp of the cartridge 6.35 mm refers to part of the headstamp of the French firm of S.F.M. Instead, I believe it represents the name of the city, Milano, where the Leon Beaux factory is.

Giovanni Moss

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#10

Ciao John
Most likely it is correct
But the 6.5 carcano cartridges with this headstamp were certainly produced by the SFM for the LBC, the companies collaborated closely (the sons of the two owners had married)

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