9 x 18m/m Makarov "601" code


#1

Can anyone tell me precisely who made the 9 x 18 m/m Makarov cartridges that have, as the factory identifier, the code “601?” My understanding is that they are associated with Uzbekistan, but I have received conflicting information from knowledgable collectors about whether or not they were made FOR that country or IN that country, and in one case, whether they had anything at all to do with Uzbekistan. It is important that I get the accurate story of these rounds.

Specimens at hand:

Ball, RN FMJ GMCS, brass case, brass primer, no seals: " 601 01 "
Ball, RN FMJ GMCS, brass case, nickel primer, no seals: " * 601 D 02 "
Ball, RN FMJ Brass, brass case, brass primer, no selas: " * 601 D 02 "
Dummy, RN FMJ GMCS, brass case, no primer: " * 601 A 01 " (in this case, the letter I have portrayed as “A” is actually the Cyrillic letter “D”, which I could not reproduce here).

The stars are all 8-point, like asterisks in form. On the dummy round, the bunter entries are larger and not the same. For example, the hook of the numeral “1” is longer, the top loop of the “6” is more curved, and while the “star” is eight point, it is quite different than on the others. The case looks identical as to width of the extractor groove and shape of the extractor-groove bevel, but the different headstamp letters and the use of the Cyrillic “D” in place of the Roman “D” make me wonder if the cases were made in the same factories?

Any help will be appreciated. Substantiation will be even more appreciated.
A picture of a box label will be super appreciated.


#2

Good morning John,

my information comes from our Czech friends, as you know many have a good relationship with S&B employees: 601 with the head stamps you list were made

BY Sellier&Bellot, Vlasim
FOR (I heard 2 information) Kazakhstan / Uzbekistan

I have seen 601 on 5,45x39, 7,62x54R, 7,62x39 and 9x18, cases are boxer primed.

I am surprised that you say there are Cyrillic letters D ( Д ) in the headstamp, mine definitely have a Latin A. Would you please post a picture?


#3

Hans, the Cyrillic “D” exists in reality. There are also 9x19 cartridges. Boxes for these cartridges are also existant with the logo of “Vostok” from Tashkent in Uzbekistan.
The machinery was supposedly made by Manurhin. So the cartridges should have been made in fact in one of these countries. Where the earliest hs might be those made in France (my assumption).

How Czechia is related I can not say but I have seen a 7.62x54R with the 601 hs (601 B 02 *) coming out of a S&B box of civilian marked sniper cartridges with HPBT projectiles (11.3 gram / 174 grains). I have no explanation for what role Czechia was playing in this whole issue.


#4

EOD, I have never seen the 601 code on 9mmP! Can you post a picture of the headstamp??? What year was it made???

Any info appreciated!!!

Lew


#5

Here is the headstamp of the 9Para produced during the MANURHIN machine testing in France :

This corresponds to the first original 9x19 bunters delivered together with the machines which were shipped to Tachkent.

Cheers,

JF


#6

JF - the “star” figure on the 9mm Para headstamp is the same as the one I mentioned in my posting as being different. All the others I have have a very different star, without the circle in the center. I will try to post pictures of the headstamps later. My recent attempts on the scanner have been very poor, unfortunately. I seem to be going backwards in my ability to make good scans.

Can anyone tell me:

  1. Why the letters are found both in the Roman and the Cyrillic, as with the letter “D”? (Of course, the “E” on the 9mm Para can be either Roman or Cyrillic).

  2. What is the meaning of these letters? They are obviously not a date code, and it would be a poor choice for a lot number I would think, as with some calibers, in any given year, they could run out of letters.

  3. Can anyone post a picture of the 601 headstamp in 9 x 18m/m Makarov that has an “A” on the headstamp? Are you sure is is not the Cyrillic “D” which looks a little bit like a Roman “A.”

All this is important to a study I am doing right now, especially as it relates to 9 x 18mm Makarov.


#7

Here is the 9Mak case with the final markings as delivered with the machines shipped to Taschkent :

Cheers,

JF


#8

JFL - o.k. that is the different style headstamp I referred to. It is not the same bunter-style as that used on the Roman “D” headstamps. the letters are bigger and the star is different. also, the top of the “6” is more curved and the hook on the “1” is more pronounced.

That symbol is not a letter “A” in either alphabet, but rather the Cyrillic “D”.
Does one with a true, Roman “A” exist? I would doubt it myself without seeing it.

Joe will be posting a picture of all the headstamps I have, as well as the box that I think is the one that EOM alluded to. That box, my specimen anyway, did NOT come with a headstamped round, but rather with a loaded round with no headstamp, nickeled primer and red primer seal.

I wonder why Uzbekistand would change the headstamp, or anyone else for that matter, from the Cyrillic “D” to a Roman “D” as, considering the Roman letter is found on “02” headstamps and the Cyrillic on “01” headstamps. they use the Cyrillic alphabet still, don’t they?


#9

From left to right: Unheadstamped round. this is the cartridge that came with the box shown below it, which I believe to be for Uzbekistan. This box did NOT come with any of the headstamped rounds (I am not saying it could not be found in conjunction with them, but my own box came with the unheadstamp cartridges); “601 01” headstamp GMCS Bullet; “* 601 D 02” headstamp brass bullet; “* 601 D 02” headstamp, nickeled primer cup GMCS bullet; “* 601 (Cyrillic “D”) 01” dummy, GMCS bullet, larger headstamp letters and different star design.

Collection of John Moss


#10

A couple of answers on this thread raise another question. If Manurhin ran the 601 headstamp before sending the machinery to Tashkent, Uzbekistan, than we would have to assume that Uzbekistan made the cartridges from then on. If so, where does Sellier & Bellot come into the picture. I keep hearing that they made the ammo, but no one has supplied any evidence of that, and if the machinery went directly from France to Uzbekistan, why would S&B be making any of the ammo?

So far, this subject isn’t making a whole lot of sense.

Is there no answer for the two different styles of headstamp that say the same thing? How about the meaning of the Cyrillic letter on the headstamp and why it was changed to a Roman letter for a Cyrillic alphabet-using country?

What is the story of the first loaded rounds with no headstamp that came with the only box label from Uzbekistan that I know of and that anybody has reported?

There must be more information out there than this.


#11

Hans - you mentioned that yours definitely have a Latin A. Is it different from the ones pictured on this thread now, that are definitely the Cyrillic form of the Latin letter “D”???

Can’t anyone help sort this out a little better? There is still big contradiction on this thread from those that say that Sellier & Bellot made these headstamps, and those that say the Manurhin machinery was shipped directly to Tashkent in Uzbekistan.

I want to cover this in a scholarly fashion in something I am writing, but right now, can only report confusion.

Help!


#12

John,

I cannot promise to get that cartridge into my hands befor the weekend. Wished the headstamp pictures Jones posted were larger. I find it difficult to see if and how exactly the fonts are.

But I have another thought:

my “A” is on a 7,62x39 (I just note the rubbish I wrote: Latin & Cyrillic A look alike of course…)
your “D” are on 9x18
JFL’s “E” is on a 9x19


#13

Hans - the pictures were taken by me. Joe just posts them for me. Just click on any one of the headstamps and you will get a bigger version of the picture, easy to see the fonts. Basically, the only difference is in the Stars and the letter size of the dummy round. Also, on the dummy, the hook on the “1” is different.

I hope someone can answer my other questions. I am still confused about the role of Sellier & Bellot in all of this.

John


#14

John,

first; I don’t have an own 601 stamped 9x18. But from what I see I feel safe to say that your 9x18

  • on the very left is Manurhin - circular primer crimp and annulus colour fit, but I don’t necessarily see Tashkent in the background
  • middle 3 are S&B - the font very much looks like the industrial ISO font (even though I’d like to have the headstamps even larger), which S&B uses since WWII times at least
  • on the right is not a Czech - other font, other asterisk and when JFL says it was French it is French to me
  • box in your picture also is French - I have my identical style 5,45 and 7,62x39 boxes from a French collector, it was maybe even from JFL.

My 7,62x39 (601 A 02 *) and 7,62x54R (601 B 02 *) both came from Czech friends and have apart from the letter the same star and the same headstamp font as your items with Latin D. And the way they are made they exactly look like ZV products.

From the above my conclusion is:

Manurhin supplied machinery, maybe more -
S&B supplied finished ammo, maybe more.

So we can complete my list:

“A” is on 7,62x39
"B" is on 7,62x54R
"D" and “Д” is on 9x18
"E" is on 9x19

Now, what is on 5,45x39, any other calibres?


#15

5.45x39 is “C”


#16

Hans - you say that you don’t necessarily “see Tashkent in the background” for the Manurhin round with no headstamp. There can be no other answer for it since it came with the box I showed in the same picture, The box has the Vostock “B” Logo (the equivalent in Cyrillic of the Roman letter “V”) right on it. They must be for Tashkent.

Other than that, your answer clears up the connection between these rounds, Manurhin and Sellier & Bellot. I assume when you mention that Sellier and Bellot may have supplied “ammunition or more” to Tashkent, you are referring to various components to be loaded at Vostok.


#17

EOD,

spassiba bolshoi, I could have guessed, now what calibre is F …? If there was.

John,

ok, when the no headstamped comes from that box, Tashkent is in the background. Now wished JFL allowed us to look into his files to find out if our friends chez Manurhin have shipped machines alone or if they shipped machines and components for Серия No. 1999/0001. Or even packed complete no-headstamp rounds? Or was the complete round a test run for acceptance test only? 1999/0001 and no headstamp rounds look very testish when final cartridge cases have dates from 2001 on.


#18

EOD - I think the really germaine question is does Manurhin supply, with an ammo line machine setup, the packaging and labeling equipment as well.

When I say that the box came with my unheadstamped round, it was not in the box, but rather with it. Several calibers came to a local collector who gave me my box and rounds. There were box samples for them as well. My box is empty, but factory sealed, so it is obviously simply a packaging sample. By association, there is no doubt that the unheadstamped rounds were contemporary and “with” the cartridge-box samples sent with them.

Could someone (or various people, if necessary) submit pictures of the 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54R and 5.45 x 39 “601” headstamps just to complete the thread for people interested in more than just my Makarov question?

It is interesting that the letters are in alphabetical order not by the Cyrillic Alphabet, but by the Roman Alphabet. The letters obviously are to the caliber like the DWM Case numbers were on their headstamps. They identify the caliber of ammunition.

I think this has turned into a good thread, and I hope that it has answered questions for people who collect the other soviet calibers, rather than just my own interest in the auto pistol. If anyone else has any more information on this “61” series of cartriges for Uzbekistan, chime in. Im going to take this afternoon to look into a couple of other sources I have, in languages I don’t have any background in, to see what I can sort out.


#19

My further reserach did not net me much. I did find that the calibers that accompanied my unheadstamped brass-cased, nickeled-primer cartridge with red primer seal, and the Uzbekistan “Vostok” box, were the 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54R and 5.45 x 39. None of the sample rounds were with headstamps, and the boxes are all pretty much identical to the one I posted a photo of, other than the caliber designation. all were lot number 1999/0001. I do not know the case material and the characteristics of the rounds other than my own 9 x 18mm.

For pictures of the boxes you can see page 38, IAA Journal 419, May/June 2001 issue.


#20

Once again, can’t someone post a picture of the headstamps of “601” code 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 54R and 5.45x39m/m to complete this thread? Scan or photos? Someone must have them since they are alluded to already on this thread. It would be nice to have them for a complete file of what is known so far!