9 x 18mm Makarov, 2 Training (Dummy) Rounds In Foam Container, Russian

[bdgreen]

The following comes from the GUNS.RU forum @ https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/216/1739224.html

Embossed Styrofoam lid-

Two 9x18mm Makarov trainings rounds held in Styrofoam container bottom, with labels-

Enlarged image of the labels that accompany the two Makarov rounds-

From the forum page, the descriptive text accompanying the photos:

Коробочка с уч. патронами пм = Box with уч. ammunition pm (Google translation from Russian to English)

According to Google Translator “уч” is possibly an abbreviation for учить = teach, learn, train, instruct.

“pm” refers to 9 x 18mm handgun Makarov.

Questions:

What does the embossed lid say and does the embossing on the lid pertain to the two training cartridges?

The wording between the two labels below the 9x18mm rounds is slightly different, can someone please translate the labels?

Any guess as to whether this is a factory purpose made item or otherwise?

Feedback, corrections are most appreciated!

Thanks,

Brian

[JPeelen]

The lid simply says 9 mm Pistol Cartridges which is how the Russians call what we call 9 mm Makarov.

[EOD]

Brian, the box says “9mm Pistol Cartridges”.
These are training kits as they do exist for plenty of different ammunition items in Russia (USSR).
Depending on the exact type these sets contain inert cartridges (often dummies re-purposed and re-marked to feature a certain load). Some other sets do contain grenades or grenade launcher rounds where then one inert and one cutaway is contained. Very often the items are glued to the lower styrofoam carrier.
Basically these are the modern versions of those wooden display boxes you surely have seen before (which were much better in my view).

About your questions:
“уч.” stands for “учебные” and applies to dummy ammunition AND also to inert training aids.
As you say it comes from “to teach” and directly translated with Russian grammar it would mean something like “teaching one(s)”.
The person who wrote this as a description of the set did so in regard to the actual contained dummy rounds.
Though the rounds contained shall feature an inert version of a live round representing a certain load or variant. For these purposes (conevenience which is contradicting the task of education) regular dummy rounds are taken and then repainted (with other sets as the 9x18 in Russian military service does not have color markings - those rounds in the hands of troops).
The table below the left round says:
"With projectile with steel core"
The table below the right round says:
"With projectile with lead core"
As you may know the lead core version was the early type and was only found in brass cases. Such details are not reflected in such kits of course.
As mentioned above I think it is not wise to use dummies of SAA in order to feature life ammo as simple minded people (as we know some are) may missunderstand the whole concept and when this happens with dummy/life ammo a key point in military knowledge is dis-regarded.

I will try to find some images of other sets which are showing the repainting of dummy rounds.

[EOD]

Ok here two sets. I think they speak for themselfes.
As you see these are repainted dummies.
And even worse the “convenience” of the makers lead to a creation of a 7.62x39 blank round (made from a pulled down dummy) which does not exist as a blank (as we all know). Such crimped 39mm cases do exist but they are not blanks and used in more special weapons and tools and are not subject to these sets.

Source: internet

[jonnyc]

Alex…do they exist in 7.62x25…and can they be found…and then make their way to my house???
I have a number of Tokarev “display dummies”, but I have never seen a set like you have shown.

[JohnMoss]

Wow - have never seen or heard of these styrofoam boxes before. Wish we knew the dates on the two Makarov dummy rounds, as I also was not aware that they came with both steel core bullets and lead core.

I would think that the lead-core bullets must be in just the first couple of years of production of this type of dummy round. I have 19 different of these “two cannelure” dummies in my collection. The earliest one is from 1955, with case made at Lugansk (Ukraine) in 1955 (Coded date - Backwards “N” which is the letter-sound “i” in our alphabet. It is the only one from Lugansk that I have in this type dummy. It is, of course, identified with the factory number code “270.” From Yuryuzan, factory number code “38,” I have 17 dates from 1956 (code letter “K”) thru 1984, which is the highest date I have seen on this type. I also have one with no headstamp, the only Russian 9 x 18 mm round I have seen without a headstamp. I have no idea from what year it would be. It possibly was made from a case rejected for missing the headstamp bunting, but I don’t know that for sure.

Edited to change the highest date in my collection from 85, which was wrong, to “84.”

John M.

[EOD]

Jon, I never saw a set for 7.62x25.
As for the styrofoam variant we even could exclude this caliber as it was long gone by the time the styrofoam versions emerged.

I only saw loose cartridges like shown below but here it could be possible that they came in the old style wooden boxes. Or in the worst case were made in the workshop of a base.

Source: internet

[EOD]

John, it may be my insufficient Englilsh or you simply demonstrated my point of these sets missleading people by using regular dummies.

The set on top is meant to show the life ball loads, there the one with steel core and the one with lead core (and as I said they do not care for the fact that lead core only came in brass cases, also they had to use the dummies they had, futher noone cares for such details there). This was my point of it being wrong to use regular dummies for this purpose.
Be assured noone in Russia will care if dummies have steel or lead core projectiles.

[JohnMoss]

Alex,

It is not completely true that lead-core bullets for the Makarov cartridge were only in brass cases. There is an exception. The 270 N headstamped ball rounds in steel cases had lead-core bullets, or at least some of them did (I have never had any quantity of these in duplicate to test to see if they came both ways). I agree, however, that all of the Yuryuzan production, which as far as I know was all in CWS cases, have steel-core bullets.

John M.

[EOD]

John, ok, I was generalizing more than I should have.
Though I never looked into the “270 И” and learned something new now.

[JohnMoss]

EOD - I wish I knew as much about Warsaw Pact ammo as you do, including the 9 x 18 mm. have learned a huge amount I didn’t know on the subject from your postings here and out correspondence.

John

[EOD]

John, way too kind of you! I still have more questions than answers and as you see I am making mistakes on a regular basis.

[Fede]

John, I have seen identical sets with 9 x 18 dummy cartridges headstamped 38 84.

[AZOV2014]

The year of manufacture of the liner does not always mean that the cartridge was assembled in the same year, you have plant number 38 (Yuryuzan), 1984.

More accurate information on the cartridge is on the pit of a metal can in which packs are laid, or on the side wall of the box.

[JohnMoss]

Fede - That’s the highest date I have encountered in the 38 84 drill rounds, which as EOD said, are sometimes repurposed for these “instructional” kits. I have a 7.62 Tokarev dummy with red and black type, like he showed, but I got it as a single, along with a regular fluted dummy 7.62 x 25. I should clarify my comment on “highest date.” There is a single- groove dummy dated later. I have a picture of it, but have never actually seen one of them. It is quite high on my “want list.”

Do you have a picture of such a kit for the 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge? I need one that I can use. I think the ones Brian posted are likely the property of some member of the cited Russian Forum.

John Moss

[AZOV2014]

Ask Interammo, what is its topic)

[bdgreen]

Great information, thanks to everyone’s input!

Alex,

Basically these are the modern versions of those wooden display boxes you surely have seen before (which were much better in my view).

No, I have not had the luck/opportunity to view the wooden display boxes. If you have any photos of such displays could you please post them here? Thanks for your time and efforts.

And I agree completely with John’s statement, from his post above:

EOD - I wish I knew as much about Warsaw Pact ammo as you do, including the 9 x 18 mm. have learned a huge amount I didn’t know on the subject from your postings here

Brian

[EOD]

Brian, it is almost embarrassing but I never dared to photograph or save such images from the web as the boxes had no particular value for me. So had to find some images in the web. Found only fuzes so far.
Maybe our Russian / CIS users here may have some images on hand?

Exemplary images (source internet):

[bdgreen]

Alex,

Not a problem, it gives me something to look for and when I do see one I now, thanks to you, know what it is!

Brian

[hooke1978]

do they exist in 7.62x25

I never saw a set for 7.62x25