9 x 19 mm Australian made


#1

John Moss:

John, you were interested in some information on Australian production of 9mm. The following is what information I possess, and is incomplete, and hopefully doesn’t contain errors. If it does. I’d be obliged to have them pointed out.

During WW2, the production of 9mm was essentially Cartridge, S.A., Ball 9mm Mk1. This consisted of a gilding metal clad projectile, brass case, and the specification called for a brass cap shell (primer),
Production took place at MF and MH. The headstamps were 120 degree apart, with the monogram, two year date and 9mm.
MH produced the headstamps 43 and 44
MF produced the headstamps 42,43,44 and 45.
In the MF 45 you will find three versions of primers. There was a particular and very definite reason for this. As mentioned above the primer was brass, filled with a mercury fulminate cap composition. In 1945 they experienced some cap problems at proof and found some of the brass cap shells had been unduly stressed during processing. This resulted in stress cracking in a few instances, accelerated by the presence of a mercuric salt, and caused failures on firing.
To maintain production, several batches of cap shells were nickel plated and used in production until the problem could be sorted. After trials, the cap copper alloy used in .303s was adopted for use in the 9mm.
After I asked the question, this information was given to me by the head chemist at the time who was involved in the process.

The MH production are different from MF, in that they have a three dot crimp. This was done to improve bullet pull. Footscray knew of this process but didn’t adopt it.
From memory, the MF production will be found with or without line crimps below the case necks. This again was done to improve bullet pull, until a method was found to avoid having to use them.

9mm Dummy/Drill rounds.
It’s hard to be sure if any dummy/drills were produced during the war. My information is that the first order for a Drill Mk1 was received in 1951/52. Footscray was not setup for 9mm production and had to use wartime stocks, some of which had to be broken down ball ammunition. Naturally these would have dates from 42-45. They have an empty cap chamber, and the only other identification is a nickel plated case. (Note: I haven’t confirmed this). I do know of a 43 dated dummy which has a plated case, which I thought was tinned, and no primer, which is probably from this order.

A second order for drill was received by Footscray in 1963, by which time Footscray had retooled for the 9mm. Before completion the order was amended to supply a portion as Cartridge, S.A., Inert, 9mm for testing of weapons. There are a number of dummy/Drill rounds all dated 1963. Footscray sent me photos of them at the time. The all had MF 63 9mmD headstamp.
I believe the Inert versions had a Blackened projectile, Plain Plated case, blind primer pocket. there are two versions of drill, with the same headstamp.
GM projectile, Plain plated case, blind primer pocket. the other is similar except the case has three red flutes. At least one of these also has a red painted primer pocket.
Some of the above are packed in cartons marked “For D & Q Only”.

The next order for drill rounds was received in 1970. This was designated the F2, which seems to indicate an Australian pattern. These have the GM projectile, Plated case and three red grooves on case.
Dates seen are MF 70 9mmF2, also 71,72 and 76. There is a 1975 version with a black primer which usually indicates a sugar filled dummy. There could be other dates but I’ve not seen them.

In 1965 and 66 there are drills headstamped MF 65 9mm2Z. The only information I can see at this moment is they are identified by not having a primer.

A couple of strange ones exist of wood bullet dummies on wartime cases. I know nothing of these, other than having seen specimens.

Next time; Proof, Standard, and Ball Mk2Z etc. when I get some more time to dig.

Cheers
John


#2

Dear JK,
Having mentioned MH ( Hendon, SA) as a manufacturer of 9x19 during WW II, some of the Case Trimming Machinery from there ended up in Riverbrand Factory, SA (Churchward) and then finally in Taipan Projectiles in Gympie (Q) ( Mal Bone). The machines are Waterbury-Farrels, and marked in sign-writer’s Paint, “Hendon 9mm No2 Line”. Mal Bone has adjusted them to act as Bullet Jacket Trimmers, for a range of Jacket diameters and lengths.
W-F is still a supplier of Cartridge related machinery, based in Waterbury, Connecticut, USA. The Hendon machinery was all acquired during WW II. I think a couple of the lead-core cutting and forming machines at Taipan were also from Hendon/Riverbrand. Some of the Hendon Machinery was made locally, by Goerz of Melbourne, and John Heine of Sydney (General Machine Tool Builders).

Awaitinbg your info on 1960s-1990s 2z Production. ( 9mm Line dismantled in 1993/4 at Footscray…no new line at Benalla—all supplies of 9mm now acquired overseas (CBC, WCC, IMI, FN,etc.)

Doc AV


#3

Hi DocAv,

Thank you for the information on the fate of the equipment used for 9mm production at MH. I had no knowledge of what happened to the machinery, so it’s good to add it to my records.

I should edit one item in my previous post. The MF 45 9mm 1Z that I’ve sighted all have the 1Z included in the headstamp. Details being at 90 degrees spacing.

My knowledge on later production of the 9mm is somewhat limited, so I’ll throw in what I do know, and hope others can fill in missing data.

9mm Proof Q1Z. My notes indicate these were the first production of the 60s, predating normal Ball. A packet dated 27th Nov 1963 seems to confirm this. Identification is by the headstamp on early varieties, plus the copper washed case. I presume there was ongoing production of proof loads, although I don’t have definite data to support this. However I believe an AFF 91 headstamped is probably a proof.

Armourers dummy. U Mk 1. The ones sighted have been turned steel, with headstamp MF 55 9mm U1 at 90 degree spacing. I have a note that a brass version, tinned exists, but at this time cannot confirm it.

9mm Ball Mk2Z (Standard). I know of two lots of this type, but there are probably more. The first lot for 10,000 rounds was manufactured in 1965, and another lot of 20,000 in 1970. The only identification used was a yellow annulus. The s was not included in the headstamp because of the urgency of the requirements and the necessity of procuring special heading tools.

9mm Ball Mk 2Z. The normal Ball Mk 2Z consists of a GM jacketed projectile, brass case and copper primer. No cannelure on the case.
Manufacture seemed to recommence at MF in 1964, with the headstamp MF 64 9mm2Z at 120 degree spacing. I have also sighted the following years. 65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,78,79,80,81,84,85,86,87,88 It is quite likely they were also manufactured in the years I haven’t sighted.

In 65 and 75, some were produced with the black primer, indicating sugar filled dummy.

In 1988 the factor changed its monogram to AFF. Headstamps were the same layout as previous, and we find an overlap of monograms in 88, years 89, 90, 91 and 92 have been noted.

Another monogram change happened in 1992, with this now being ADI (Australian Defence Industries). This may have been the last year of local production.

There are a couple of packets of 9mm Drill Mk1 (Aust). which were packed in 1961. The packets are sealed so I don’t have a description of the contents.

My apologies for this rather rushed post. I’m possibly not going to have much more time this year to further explore the 9mm, so thought it best to give what I’ve got and hope others can fill in gaps.

Cheers

John


#4

John and Doc - Thanks for the information on Australian production of the 9 mm Marks I and 2Z ammunition, along with other loadings. I do not have any real “insider” information beyond what was given already, so perhaps the only, and the best thing I can do, is simply list the specimens I have from Australia.

Ball Rounds. All have GM RN FMJ projectiles, brass primer cups, ring primer crimps and no special neck crimps, unless otherwise noted:

MF 42 9MM - with and without three horizontal-linear bullet crimps at the case mouth, and with slightly different headstamp bunters used.

MF 43 9MM - kept only for differnt lettering size. I don’t normally collect just different dates.

MF 43 9MM - Kept as a curiosity only. GM RN Soft-Nose bullet, case still shows undeformed bullet crimps as described above, brass primer marked ICI on the primer, with letters intertwined in their trademark pattern. Does not show extractor or ejector marks, but appears to have been a fired case and has some unusual marks just above the extractor-groove bevel. Perhaps from brass fired in some sort of ammunition testing device, and then sold to a commercial reloader???

MF 45 9MM IZ - Three specimens as mentioned by JK - brass primer, nickel primer and copper primer

MF 70 9MM 2Z - no special comments

MF 85 9MM 2Z - Quite different lettering than the one dated “70”

MH 43 9MM - Three dot-type bullet crimps

MH 44 9MM - Also with the three dot-type bullet crimps. Different headstamp lettering

AFF 88 9MM2Z - No special features

AFF 92 9MM 2Z - Different headstamp lettering and spacing

ADI 92 9 MM 2Z - Believed to be last Australian production.

Commercial MF Production (?):

No headstamp - New, unprimed-empty boxer type brass case

MFc - No other headstamp markings, this all at the 12 o’clock position. This is also a new, unprimed-empty case of boxer-primer type.

NOTE: The above two came to me as a group along with two different completely tinned-lead RN bullets, one with a flat base, and one with a deep concaved base.

Proof Loads, all brass case, GM bullets, brass primers with circular primer crimp, and features as otherwise noted:

MF 43 9MM - Red bullet tip, purple primer seal. Reported to be an SMG (Owen?) barrel proof. Received from Australian Museum owner who acquired this and several of the QIZ type listed below on my behalf. Although not allowed to enter the grounds of the factory (Footscray) they were passed to him in a normal letter envelope, return address including “OHMAS” (On Her Majesty’s Australian Service). I believe I still have the envelope.

MF 63 9 M M Q IZ - Copper-washed or plated brass case, no evident primer seal.

Dummies. All different so fully described.

MF 42 9MM - brown, short wood bullet, very much like the 9 mm Makarov or Italian .380 Auto bullet in ogive. Snapped original primer. No other ID as a dummy.

MF 42 9MM - Stadard bullet in empty case. NO primer. Berdan anvil and flash holes present. Has the three horizontal bullet crimps. Appears to me to be a unit-armoury dummy made from live ammunition. The anvil has a “ding” as if externally decapped, but the case shows no signs of having ever been fired.

MF 43 9MM - Stardard ball and case. Heavier roll mouth crimp than seen on ball rounds, although not “dramatic.” snapped primer cup. Case shows no sign of being fired with a full-pressure load of any kind, and has four staggard holes in the case wall, through which one can see a red-wood spacer inside the case.

MF 43 9MM - Standard bullet, unprimed case. The case is a frosted silver/white color (tinned?). No other ID as a dummy

M F 5 5 9 M M U I - Solid Steel armourer’s dummy. Deep, mock primer pocket (0.160"/4.06mm deep).

M F 6 0 9 M M U I - Two piece armourer’s dummy. Non-magnetic bullet, magnetic steel case. Bullet and case are coated with a dull silver-white finish (Tinned?)

MF 63 9MM 2Z - Four variations:

1.) FMJ RN GM bullet, brass case, empty blind primer pocket (no anvil or flash holes), prmer pocket painted red, 5 staggered holes in case, red-wood internal spacer.

2.) FMJ RN All-Black bullet, nickeled-brass case, empty blind primer pocket.

3.) FMJ RN GM bullet, nickeled-brass case, empty blind primer pocket painted red.

4.) FMJ RN GM bullet, nickeled-brass case with three red-painted flutes in case wall, empty blind primer pocket painted red.

MF 65 9MM 2Z - FMJ RN GM bullet, plain brass case with inert, all-blackened primer cup, reported to be sugar-filled for machine testing (overloads and underloads).

MF 70 9MMF2 - FMJ GM RN bullet, brass case with three red flutes in case wall. Empty, blind primer pocket painted red. This is a controversial round. The entire case is blackened. The opinion of an Australian collector who had not seen the cartridge was that the cartridge was laying out in the sun, probably on a training ground somewhere where it was dropped, and later found, with the sun blackening the plated case. This dummy is well-used; certainly not sparkling new. The opinion above made sense at first, but a close examination of the cartridge shows that the black finish was originally pretty uniform throughout. If laying on the ground, one would think the side turned up would be blackened and the side on the ground might still show nickel or tin plating, whatever was the original process, and perhaps corrosion.
It shows neither. Places where the black is thin on the case reveals plain brass under the black coloration. If the whole, original finish flaked, that could explain that. However, places in the flutes in the case wall, basically undamaged, where the red paint has chipped off, also show plain brass. Interestingly, when the Collector who logically felt, and I tended to agree before closer exam, that it was sun damage, later saw it during a visit to my house, he then felt it was factory blackened. I am still not sure!

MF 70 9MMF2 - this is what some feel the above described cartridge was or should be. FMJ RN GM bullet, Nickeled or tinned case with three red flutes, empty blaind primer pocket painted red.

MF 72 9MMF2 - Same as above, but with slightly larger flutes.

No Headstamp - FMJ RN GM bullet, brass case with four staggered holes and internal red-wood spacer, empty unpainted primer pocket with Berdan Anvil, but no flash holes.

No Headstamp - Same as above but with no holes in the case wall.

No Headstamp - Same as above with no holes in case, but with red stripe across base, for whatever reason unknown to me. Not impossible that the stripe is not original, but it does not have the look of a home-job with a marking pen. The cartridge appears to have never been chambered in a weapon of any type.

That’s all I have. I have tried to describe them as completely and honestly as I can. For a run-down of known dates, I suggest a look at Lew Curtis’ book on 9 mm Headstamps, Volume II.


#5

Hi John,

Thanks for adding to the post. Most of which confirms my observations, but also adds to my knowledge base.

Your comment on differing headstamp lettering. I believe most heading tools were made, at least for a time, by outside specialists. It would seem, an not only on 9mm, there was no strict requirement for the type and size of the letters, therefore many slight variations occurred with each change in tooling.

The MF 43 9mm Soft nose is definitely not from Footscray, other than the case. As you suggest, it is a reload.

MF 85 9mm 2Z lettering. See above comment.

MF Commercial production. Also found with MF 9mm, headstamp at 12 and 6 o’clock. GM jacket, brass case and nickel primer.
As above without any headstamp.

MF 43 9MM - Red bullet tip, purple primer seal. I know of this round and there is nothing official,l to my knowledge, to confirm its purpose. I seem to recall a statement made to me from a reliable source that the Owen SMG was not proofed during the war, which appears to contradict the current version of its supposed use. Here again, that’s only my thoughts.

MF 70 9MMF2 Dummy blackened case. This is a new one to me and doesn’t match anything in my records. Strange!!!

You mention one with a red strip across the base. This style of marking rounds was used many times internally at Footscray, to identify small lots of cartridges produced for special purposes. Different colours and differing styles were used. Unfortunately without some creditable documentation we can only know these types of rounds are possible ex factory. For their own use, for Army Inspection Service and for use at Lithgow, Footscray made many items which never saw the outside world and were never documented.

Cheers

John


#6

John - Thanks for your comments. Your second answer to this thread was posted just before mine, while I was writing it probably. That’s why it might seem to some that I ignored what you wrote. I did not - I simply did not see what you wrote until my single reply to this thread was posted.

I personally have always believe my “red stripe dummy” was factory and completely legit. I know that is still not proved, but my Australian source, at the time, got me so much good Australian stuff that I did not doubt it when he said it was factory, and still do not. Your comments actually make me accept it even more as being factory.

I forgot to list my loaded round on the unheadstamped, boxer-primed case with no headstamp. I have the exact same one you describe - GM bullet, nickel primer cup. Unfortunately, I do not have the MF 9mm headstamped commercial case. It is a very big hole in my collection.

Just so you know about when I was picking up australian rounds, it was from about 1975 to 1993. I got my ADI round in 1993 and it was the last Australian 9 mm I added to my collection, as far as I can recall.

All I can say about the red-tipped proof load is that there is almost no chance that it is NOT legitimate. It came right out the front gate of Footscray along with five specimens of the 63-date QIZ rounds. My contact was told only that it was a proof load done at Footscray, and the man who brought it out to him thought it was an SMG barrel proof. The “Owen” part in my reply on this thread, as you see, was more of a question by me than a statement. The fellow who got it had a privately owned arms museum, but open to the public I believe, and it was sanctioned by the government. I don’t recall his name, I am ashambed to say. He had been in our store a couple of times, and that’s where I met him originally. He told me that when most of the Owens were turned in, he was invited to a warehouse where the floor was covered with them, and allowed to take one each of any gun that he could show the inspectors that it was a variation of any kind, including markings, for his museum.

The black-case, red-fluted dummy has been seen by several Australian collectors at my house, and by some Americans. About 75 percent felt it was legitimate. Oddly, since it is mine, I am not at the 75% convinced level, either way. I would say about a 50-50 chance either way. I don’t suppose I will ever be totally convinced it is a factory variation, unless another identical to it shows up. I will try to photograph it and send you a picture of it. I never could get the hang of posting pictures here. I don’t like doing anything through an interim web site like photobucket anyway. As everyone knows, I don’t like computers much, and the IAA Forum is the one and only one that I belong to and am active on. I spend way too much time on the computer anyway, although it is about my only contact with the hobby anymore.

Thanks for the date listing John. I was going to try to cull one out of Lew’s works, but then looked at my watch and had other responsibilities to attend to so I had to close off my reply to the thread. This IAA Forum thread will become a key document in my Australian 9 mm File.


#7

Hi John,

I’m pleased to be able to help with your documentation of the Australian 9mm. We are fortunate (??) production was so limited that its a reasonably straight forward job to document the basics, and with some of the other data, flesh out a lot of the rest.

I don’t doubt that the red tipped 9mm came out of Footscray. Sorry if I gave that impression. I also have a feeling I’ve seen a whole packet of these, but don’t think they had a top to the packet, or any markings. These also came out of Footscray, and like my earlier comments, if for internal use, need not be otherwise marked in any way. They well may have been used as you were advised, but in my mind there is still a question mark. I’ll try to do some more digging on this, although DocAv may be able to shed some light on it. By the way, I think your contact could have a first name of Keith.

I would appreciate a photo of the all black dummy. As I said, I’ve not heard of one, although I must point out I’m not the fount of all knowledge on this subject. Like you I’m not a fan of photobucket, although I do appreciate the uses we can make of computers. I also love the digital photography and email. Wish we had them 40 years ago (sigh).

Will keep in touch.

Cheers

John


#8

John,

If you are thinking of Keith Ryall, of Kryall Castle, that is not the man. I knew Keith Ryall, and he was at my house a couple of times, but have not heard from him, or the gentleman with the Museum, in years. The gentleman in question was not a cartridge collector other than liking to have a specimen or so for each firearm in the collection. He asked me about a 8 mm Siamese Mauser round when he was here years ago, and I had one at home, so I after work, I went home, got it, and delivered it to him at his hotel on the opposite side of San Francisco from where I lived. He was leaving the next day, and had no way to come to my house for it. During the following year, he repaid that very trivial kindness I gave him a dozen times over.


#9

John,

Yes it was Keith Ryall I had in mind.

John


#10

JM, you listed “AFF 92”…I also deal in scrap 7,62Nato Aussie cases, and in the 7,62, the corporative change occurred between AFF 91, (Boxer Case) and ADI 92 (Boxer case). AFF 88 to 90 7,62 were Berdan. I am quite sure I have some fired ADI 92, as well as ADI 93 9mm cases ( all Berdan). All production of 9mm and 7,62 stopped before Jan 1994, as NO Headstamps exist in this year date for SAA.(Footscray closed down.).
ADI Benalla began production of ONLY 5,56 in 1995. ( and .50cal BMG in 1999, after a trial run by MF in 1986-89). New 7,62 production has been “fore-shadowed” for some years, but nothing has eventuated yet. ( FNB and other suppliers are too cheap., even with our high dollar).

Doc AV


#11

Doc - the only real difference in the lettering on the AFF 88 and the AFF 92 is that the 92-date has a small gap between “9MM” and “2Z” while the “88” date has no gap. Being first and foremost a headstamp “freak” I keep this kind of difference, whereas for many reasons, I usually do not save dates.

You mention you are quite sure that you have some empty cases for “ADI 93” in 9 mm. This is the first time I have heard of a “93” date for it on 9 mm Mark 2Z cartridges. Could you please post a picture of the case so we can positively document it?


#12

mistaken post


#13

WOW! What a Tour de Force on Australian 9mm ammo. I have few comments. I have highlighted in bold those which I don’t think have been previously described in the thread.

I do have an MH 43 9MM normal ball load with a significant roll crimp at the case mouth instead of the three punch crimps. I have the normal load in both 43 and 44 dates.

In MF I have:

The 45 hst with the three primer types.

The ball loads in 42, 43 & 44 with no case mouth crimps and in 42 and 43 with case mouth crimps that are 3 long lines-one of these has no primer seal color.

A tinned case dummy dated 43 with no primer. This finish it too frosty looking to be nickel in my opinion. This may be the 1951/52 dummy you mention. It sounds just like the one you describe.

I also have the MF 43 9MM red tip load that John M described as an Owen proof load. Mine has written “BARREL PROOF $2.00” on the side to show how long I have had it.

MF 43 9MM - Stardard ball and case, snapped primer cup, four holes in the case wall, red-wood spacer like the one John describes and an identical item, but the the remains of red paint on the bullet and casemouth.

An unheadstamped load that looks like a unit made dummy but with some strange characteristics. There is a 4mm hole drilled through the case which goes through both sides of the case and the plain wood spacer inside. There is the remains of a typical Australian primer crimp. The crimp seems strange since it is a blind primer pocket with no flashholes. Also strange is that the primer pocket is only 3.75mm in diameter instead of the roughly 4.4mm primer pockets in other Australian cases. I got this from DW Smith in Australia quite a while ago along with a number of other Australian drills.

MFc NUPE case-boxer pri

Unheadstamped dummy with read strip across case head

MF 71 9MMF2 plated dummy with red flutes also 70

Four variations on the MF 63 dummies

MF 63 Q1Z copper washed proof

MF 55 and MF 60 9MM U1

MF 65 with all black primer, reported to be suger filled for machine testing

Unheadstamped 115gr ball load, Nickel primer reportedly from 1955 or 1956 by Bill Woodin

Unheadstamped boxer case with more rounded finish on head than load above. With a 115gr blt

Standard MF 69 9MM2Z in the following dates: dated 64 through 70, 73, 75, 79, I know all the missing dates exist except for 76 & 77 on out through 88 but 88 in this headstamp is not confirmed.

I have the ADI and AFF rounds with the 9MM2Z 92 on the headstamps. Also AFF rounds headstamped 88 & 89. Also reported to exist with a 90 date.

I have a bunter that is only ADI 93 and reportedly this was a 9mm bunter and some cases were made with this headstamp, but it may actually be a 5.56mm bunter. I would appreciate confirmation that this headstamp does or does not exist in 9mm, though I know it is difficult to prove a negative.

I know I am lacking the following loads described above

JM post:

[quote]MF 43 9MM - Kept as a curiosity only. GM RN Soft-Nose bullet, case still shows
undeformed bullet crimps as described above, brass primer marked ICI on
the primer, with letters intertwined in their trademark pattern. Does not
show extractor or ejector marks, but appears to have been a fired case and
has some unusual marks just above the extractor-groove bevel. Perhaps
from brass fired in some sort of ammunition testing device, and then sold to
a commercial reloader???[/quote]

[quote]with two different
completely tinned-lead RN bullets, one with a flat base, and one with a deep
concaved base.[/quote]

[quote]MF 42 9MM - brown, short wood bullet, very much like the 9 mm Makarov or
Italian .380 Auto bullet in ogive. Snapped original primer. No other ID as a
dummy.
MF 42 9MM - Stadard bullet in empty case. NO primer. Berdan anvil and flash
holes present. Has the three horizontal bullet crimps. Appears to me to be a
unit-armoury dummy made from live ammunition. The anvil has a “ding” as if
externally decapped, but the case shows no signs of having ever been fired.[/quote]

[quote]MF 70 9MMF2 - FMJ GM RN bullet, brass case with three red flutes in case
wall. Empty, blind primer pocket painted red. This is a controversial round.
The entire case is blackened.[/quote] Great round in my opinion!

[quote]No Headstamp - FMJ RN GM bullet, brass case with four staggered holes and
internal red-wood spacer, empty unpainted primer pocket with Berdan Anvil,
but no flash holes.
No Headstamp - Same as above but with no holes in the case wall.[/quote]

JK post:

[quote]1965 and 66 there are drills headstamped MF 65 9mm2Z. The only
information I can see at this moment is they are identified by not having a
primer.[/quote]

[quote]9mm Ball Mk2Z (Standard). The only identification used was a yellow
annulus.[/quote]

[quote]MF Commercial production. Also found with MF 9mm, headstamp at 12 and 6
o’clock. John, I have seen a case with only MF but not with MF over 9mm!!![/quote]

DocAV post:

I am also lacking the following round which I have seen and know it is legit.

MF 76 9MMF2 fluted dummy rounds, both with and without a painted primer pocket

MF 84 9MM2Z internal HP load with a normal FMJ, but a cavity under the jacket in the nose and a HP in the lead core. Known as an “A R Special”

Sorry I accidentally posted this mess just after I started so have done a massive edit.

Thanks to all for the great info!

Cheers,
Lew

Edited to remove “MF” hst. John & John were right it is “MF 9MM” and I don’t have it either


#14

Hi DocAv,

Appreciate the advice about the 93 dated 9mm case. Like John Moss I would love a photo or case to document. This info does seal the end of the Aust 9mm. Thanks.

Cheers

John


#15

Hi All,

Have partially solved the mystery of the 9mm Red Tipped rounds. They are Proof rounds.

They were remanufactured by using MF 43 9mm cases, or else disassembled rounds in either late 1952 or early 1953.
They were packed differently to Ball cartridges, in a normal packet, but had all projectiles pointing up, instead of normal head and tail. Box content was 40 instead of the usual 30.

A attached label stated " Not for use in carbine or pistol, For use only in …(illegible) barrels assembled in non recoiling slave action.

Packet is dated 11 Feb 1953.

That’s all folks,

Cheers

John


#16

Lew,

Can you give me a description of the dummy I didn’t list in my first post. I always thought there were 4, but can only be sure of three of them.

The dummy with the red stripe. As I said, Footscray used the system of coloured lines on the bases of small special batches to indicate loads etc. It would be interesting to see if the overall weight is close to a normal ball round.

The round with just MF, would be another of the internal specials. Just a normal bunter with the additional letters ground off. A test of some sort, but what ??? Guess we may never know. However I would appreciate a photo of the headstamp if possible.

Also appreciate your comment on the 9mm MH with mouth crimp. I was only photographing headstamps, then realized I needed profiles. Unfortunately time and distance (1800 klms) makes it a little difficult for me to rectify.

Cheers

John


#17

John K - I listed all four of the MF 63 dummies in my first answer on this thread.


#18

John K, I didn’t describe mine because they are identical to those John M listed.

Many thanks to you both, and John, thanks for the info on the red tip proof.

Cheers,
Lew


#19

John and Lew,

Sorry guys. I’m trying to cover too much ground in too short a time. I was also trying to make sense of the fluted drill, without painted flutes which I now believe may have been a normal drill, pulled from Footscray, prior to painting. We will have to see if any more turn up.

Cheers

John


#20

Some more, possibly, on those red tipped proof rounds.

I believe there is a relationship between their manufacture and what is called the “Malaysian Emergency” which started on 18th June 1948, and in which we as a Commonwealth country was involved.

Between 1948 and 1955 36,662 Owen Machine Carbines were modified and refurbished at the Lithgow Small Arms factory, included in which was the fitting of the Mk 2 barrel.

We not only used them in Malaysia, we also used them in Korea, and to a small extent in Vietnam.

Based on the above, I feel those proof rounds were destined for use at Lithgow.