90 MM M19, dated 1944


#1

Large yellow brass like shell, crimped edge, anyone know what type of artillery shell it is for? Tank Destroyer. or tank?
Its just a spent casing.
i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll37 … 1246146181


#2

Andy–It was used in the General Patton Tank and as Anti-Aircraft Artillery. My Father spent 4 years on 90mm AAA in Europe and North Africa.


#3

Thankyou sir, but was there a tank named after Patton, in 1944? Im googling…Andy


#4

I should stay away from this one, as I am not a tank guy, but here goes. Shoot me out of the water politely, please!

The Patton series of tanks are post WWII. I think the M47 was the first one.

The M26 Pershing (M26E1) was fitted with a 90mm gun, but I don’t know when that version of the Pershing came out - if it was as early as 1944, or later.


#5

The M26, Pershing Tank, was the first US “heavy” tank that mounted the 90mm gun. It enterd service in late 1944/early 1945. The upgraded M46,
Patton tank entered service in 1949


#6

[quote=“Frank N”]The M26, Pershing Tank, was the first US “heavy” tank that mounted the 90mm gun. It enterd service in late 1944/early 1945. The upgraded M46,
Patton tank entered service in 1949[/quote]

The M26 Pershing did appear in Europe late in 1944 but in small numbers. Priority was given to production and deployment of the M4 Sherman which was under-gunned, out-manoeuvered and under-armed compared to the opposition armour. Had the M26 been available earlier then the Battle of the Bulge may not have happened and the war may have ended earlier.

The M4 won through eventually due to sheer numbers, a superb repair and maintenance system and enough (just) replacement crews to make up for casualties. I recomend reading: “Death Traps - The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II” by Belton Y Cooper, ISBN 0-89141-814-8.

gravelbelly


#7

The 90mm cannons M36 and M41 were mounted in the M46, M47 and M48-M48A3 series tanks and the 90mm cannon M54 was mounted on the light weight M56


#8

No doubt that your dad drove Pershings, but the tanks in the picture are M4-A2 Shermans with the 76mm gun.

The M-36 tank destroyer used a 90mm gun…and late war M-10 tank destroyers were modified to use one as well. Some Shermans were experimentally fitted with a Pershing turret and 90mm gun.

My reference material only covers the tanks and guns, not the specifics of the rounds they fired beyond basic size, weight and performance.

I can’t say if the M-19 case was for a tank/TD gun or AAA guns. Maybe the cases were the same and just loaded with different projectiles…

AKMS


#9

Yeah you’re right, my mistake…wrong pic. I know I have another around here somewhere.


#10

There is a very famous movie clip on the internet -
Pershing vs Panther Cologne 1945
History channel interview clip
warning it’s reality-wartime footage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g

On March 6, 1945, Sgt. Jim Bates, a First Army Signal Corps photographer attached to the 3AD, shot a now-famous 48 seconds of 16mm footage showing the destruction of a German Mark V Panther tank in the cathedral square of downtown Cologne. The Panther was struck by three 90mm rounds from an M-26 Pershing tank of E Co, 32nd Armored Regiment, 3AD. Minutes before this encounter, the Panther had destroyed a 3AD Sherman tank, killing three of its five crewmen.

Bates was positioned on the mezzanine of a bombed out office building about 100 yards from the Panther as events unfolded. Shot at the standard 24 frames per second with relatively grainy, b&w, 16mm film, the image quality was susceptible to any jarring, hand movement, or subject movement. As a result, a number of frames suffered from blurring or mis-aiming, which is understandable in a combat situation. Bates won a Bronze Star that day for his photography, based primarily on this remarkable movie sequence.

http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/feature.pages/bates.index.htm

Glenn


#11

I think all the various 90mm guns used the same case, the M19, M19A1 or the M19B1. For the most part even the projectiles were the same. The fuzing was different for the AAA guns. Until the proximety fuze was developed late in the war they used time fuzes that were set automaticely in a fuze setter tied into the Fire Control Director Radar. Fuze Setter and Gunner were my Fathers job on the AAA. He would place a round nose down in the Fuze Setter. When a light blinked on showing the fuze was set, he had 8 seconds to load the round and fire it before the fuze setting was no good. The best they ever did was 10 rounds per minute (one every 6 seconds), but the usual rate of fire was 4-6 rounds per minute.

The guns were also tied into the Fire Control Director Radar which controled the elevation and traversing to follow the target that the radar was locked onto. At night, each gun (4 guns to a Battery) had 2 radar directed search lights. Once the two search lights were locked on in a “X” on the plane, it was pretty much doomed. However, in March of 1945, all that changed when his unit was attacted by several Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (“Swallow”) jets. They were so fast that the radar, and thus the guns, could not pan fast enough to lock on to them. My Father said “Thank God the war ended not too long after that as we could do very little to stop them.”

Near the end of the war they received some new “Classified” rounds. They were instructed in how to use them but were not given any details. They were used for anti-Personnel and anti-Tank rather than Anti-Aircraft. The only name my Father ever knew them as was “Pozet” rounds. I have never found anything in Army manuals or books that described this round. He couldn’t remember how the rounds were marked for sure, but thought they may have been purple on the upper half and yellow on the bottom half. Does anyone have any information on this round. It came out in Late 1944. For anti-personal use they would fire them horizentaly set to burst about 10 feet over the Germans in their foxholes. They did not kill with shrapell, but with concussion. He said when they exploded the Germans would be lifted about 5-8 feet straight up out of their foxholes and the concussion would crush their bodies. They were no fun to fire either. The muzzle blast was so severe that the guys on the gun platform would be given nose bleeds and sometimes ear bleeds. They were the only 90mm rounds that could stop the Tiger Panzer Tanks with a frontal shot. The normal 90mm HE would just make a black smudge with little if any penetration.

Well, enough boring history, especially as most of the above has little to do with cartridges.