9611 factory code


#1

Has anyone here seen any 7.62x54R with a 9611 over 78 headstamp? If so, any idea who made it and where it ended up?


#2

Never seen or heard of that code, but it does follow a PRC pattern. Have you actually seen this round?


#3

I haven’t seen it. I’m told it is on clips and the box has Arabic writing.


#4

Hendere, my unconfirmed notes are listing it as a Chinese code which was found so far on 7.62x54R and 7.92x57.


#5

Thanks Guys. I thought it sounded Chinese but wasn’t sure. If I end up with any more info I’ll post it here.


#6

9611 fits the “Modern” Chinese ammunition manufacturing Code system, for Military ammo directed initially to the PLA.(all PLA destined ammo codes end in “1”). Some export codes end in “4” or “6” ( which normally mean a clothing/webbing plant,(4) or an Arms plant (6)…examples 946 and 964.

Finding it on a 1978 dated 7,62x54R cases confirms this, irrespective of the packaging. 1978 is also interesting, in that it matches a similar “explosion” of three and four digit codes being used, rather than the traditional two and three digit codes.
The late 1970s saw an increase in PRC supplies to third world countries of Soviet style ammo.
It is uncertain whether the “expansion” to four digits means a whole new series of factories, or simply an extension of existing codes of the same factory ( 9611==611==61 factory). There are similar “extensions” of codes across the wide range of Chinese produced 7,62x39 and 54R.

As to the mention of 7,9mm ammo with this HS, It would NOT be for PRC use, as the 7,9 calibre had effectively been sidelined by the time of Mao’s death; ThePeoples Militia continued to use old Mausers etc, with WW II and Korea-era 7,9mm ammo; all this was NOT “coded”; Unless it was a special batch for sale/aid to some third world country with still a lot of Mausers etc in service (Most of which in the 1970s were very well supplied by the Czechs, the East Germans, the Romanians, and the Yugoslavs.)

Anybody have a Pix of 7,9 with a “9611” headstamp???

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#7

forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=80600


#8

The box looks Syrian, h/s style looks Chinese.
Close-up of the H/S makes me think 97% PRC, possibly 3% NK.

Hope the poster doesn’t mind using his pic…to answer his question.
Can anyone read the label to determine the country of use?


#9

Syria did repack other ammo into own cartons, maybe it is here the case as well?


#10

I seem to remember a box of 7.62x54R with the same fancy script as the one on the top left but also having the lighthouse logo from Egypt. I can’t seem to find it to verify though. I sent the photo to an Arab friend of mine so hopefully it says something useful.


#11

The Cartridges are definitely Syrian repack, as the Script label matches the 7,5MAS packets out of Syria’s Defence Industries outside Danascus.

The “7,62x54” in arabic is quite clear, but the date “1971-2-3” is problematic…does it mean the Lot of 2 March 1971, or the lot of 3 February, 1971, or does it mean years 1971,1972 and 1973???

The various details as to components seem to indicate 1971 as the supply date, as well as Component Lot numbers (over 12 or 31, so not a date, but a lot number.)

Anybody translate the detailed script… I am limited to dates, numbers, etc.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#12

Doc, how would the 1971 fit the hs of 1978? Or might it be a model designation of the weapon(s) the cartridges were intended for?
Or is the image not the one belonging to the cartridge described in the first posting?


#13

Just heard back from my friend. He says:

Arabic Republic of Syria
Department of Defence factories
Factory # 823


#14

The box is Syrian, the cartridge (looks) Chinese, no doubt about it. But I have my doubts the cartridges were originally (re)packed into the boxes for one reason: the label describes something else than this cartridge:

  1. Hendere already translates the calligraphic label part.

  2. On the next part we read the following:
    15 Rounds 7,62x54 mm
    Ordinary XXX ball (XXX stands for a word I don’t know)
    Lot 3-2-1971

  3. The last part says:
    The case: N54-2-1971 (I believe N54 stands for the case type because the 7,62x39 case is N39, can anyone confirm?)
    [b]The primer: N29-8-1971-0,375 g/b (N29 seems to stand for the large 5,5 mm Berdan rifle primer. It is also used for 7,62x39)
    The powder: NCTP 1.2x0.4 (which is a Czech (Zemtin) product)
    [b]KF 1.2-1970-2,9 g/b
    Brass supplier: Deel (or Diehl?)

EOD & DocAV, the contents of a Syrian repack label is in its third part necessarily much different from the above, EOD, would you please publish your 7,62x45 repack label?
1971-2-3, if it was a date it would be 3rd of February by the way.

Edited for correction and more details


#15

One small correction:
15 rounds of 7,62x54mm


#16

It would seem that whoever applied the labels, got the ammo mixed up…the labels seem to apply to Czech-made ammo or components(from the dates, primer type, and Powder type.)

Maybe they had a lot of these particular labels left over, and since one 7,62x54R steel case cartridge looks very much like another, what the heck…nobody reads the label anyway, its ripped off as soon as one gets at the packet…
So much for QA…

As to Syria using Imported compnents, quite possible at the early stages of 7,62x54R use ( early 1970s…); in the late 1950s, they were still using 7,5 MAS etc; only in the mid to late 60s did they come under the full sway of Moscow’s supply system.

Another intersting little ammo mystery…

Regards Doc AV
And thanks for the Label translations.


#17

Oh my God, how embarrassing! This trap keeps getting me, Jon, you are so right! And the other error I found by myself, both are corrected in the thread.


#18

[quote=“DocAV”]…the labels seem to apply to Czech-made ammo or components(from the dates, primer type, and Powder type.)

Maybe they had a lot of these particular labels left over, and since one 7,62x54R steel case cartridge looks very much like another, what the heck…nobody reads the label anyway, its ripped off as soon as one gets at the packet…
So much for QA…[/quote]

DocAV,

sorry I cannot completely agree with the above.

The label only applies to Czechoslovak powder, the rest of the details exactly are details seen on all other Syrian brass cased cartridge labels I know of. Including the brass supplier! It looks as if the primer in the cartridges were of 5,5 mm Berdan - Czechoslovakia however followed the Russian pattern using 6,35 mm primers, at least in their production drawings.

Please take a close look at Syrian cartridges and you will agree they represent a high level of product quality, other than Iranian or even worse Iraqi. Who makes quality products will also pack and label them to quality standards.

1970s definitely were not early stages of 7,62x54R use in that country, I just now hold a 62 vintage cartridge in my hands! It is by the way not marked 7,62x54 R or something like this, it is marked 7,62 followed by presumably R.T which I would expect to show also on the box label by the way.

I cannot mean to deny the box is a 7,62x54 box because it is clearly written on the label, but I can only believe cartridges and box met just a short while ago.