9mm ammo box


#1

Came across this German 9mm ammo box.
Anyone seen a box before that held 50 rounds??

451kr


#2

I have seen 50-round boxes containing “dnh” ammunition with red seals, reportedly for the police, but never with this military label. Great box and it looks real. I say “looks real” because in this age of computers, it is easy to fake labels and things. This one looks absolutely genuine to me, though.


#3

Could it have been for export?


#4

I have the identical box, same lot, everything. Unfortunately, mine is empty. I’d like to know what ammunition is in yours. A headstamp and cartridge photo would be great!

I am convinced that this is German Army. I don’t believe that Geco would have used a German Army label on export ammo. I have a couple of boxes of Geco ammo from Romania from 1944 and both have Romanian labels.

I can’t tell you why the Army may have ordered this lot in 50 round boxes.

I hope someone has a good answer.

Cheers,

Lew


#5

Jon, this is unlikely since export ammo was not allowed to have the Wehrmacht codes on. Companies had to use their commercial logos, abbreviations or what ever they decided to be on instead.


#6

Lew,

Unfortunately this box is also empty.
Can`t help you with a headstamp or picture.

451kr.


#7

This box is really interesting! I see from his book that Lew also has a similar “dnh” 50-round box for brass case ammunition. It would be interesting to know the headstamp on the ammunition from that box, to see if the lot number on the headstamp corresponds correctly to the case-lot number on its box label.

This box almost has to be for a Copper-washed steel case round, probably headstamped "dnh ??
1 41. The reason for my questions marks is that in my own collection of German CWS-case 9 mm Para ammo, which is mediocre, I have five variations of the Lot 1 case “dnh” code ammunition:

dnh VIIf1 1 41 (Black primer seal, no case-mouth seal)
dnh VIIf1 1 41 (Red primer and case-mouth seal)
dnh St 1 41 (Black primer seal, no neck seal)
dnh St 1 41 (Red primer seal, “O” Sinoxid primer, red case-mouth seal)
dnh St 1 41 (Red primer seal [plain primer cup]), red case-mouth seal)

Also, from Lew’s book, a grey-lacquered steel variant headstamp Dnh St 1 41. However, the black and white picture has the identical tone of CWS cased rounds and the primer is completely lackqered in a color with the same tone as that of the picture above it, which from my own experience, could only be red. Lew - you might check this out. You also said that the style of the headstamp, meaning I guess that it is “St” without the plus only is observed with lot 1 of 41. I have “dnh St 1 42” in my own collection (lacquered-steel case, black PA, 08 bullet).

Which one it would be four, I don’t know. However, if it is true that the red primer seals indicate police loads, than I think the original contents could have been only one of the two rounds I listed that have black primer seals, as the label is certainly military.

Boy, after all the research that has been done on this German ammo in recent years, and all the items in collections, we still have things to learn. Fascinating!

Thanks for posting the picture of this great box label, 451kr, and thanks Lew for your books, which made researching this label even m ore fun.

Lew - if you have any questions about my comments on the “St” headstamp, email me.


#8

John, I have the same basic dnh copper-washed loads that you do except I also have the dnh VIIf1 1 41 with the red primer and cms, but without the “O” on the primer. THEREFORE, my book is WRONG! The dnh 1941 headstamps are only known as far as I have documented, with copper-washed steel cases. Thanks for the correction. Eventually when I reprint this page I will correct this error.

Too bad there are no boxes with cartridges known. Perhaps Rolf F has one. I think he has the best collection of German 9x19mm boxes in the world. It sure is better than mine by a long shot.

Cheers,

Lew


#9

Lew - then you have the same one I have - mine has no “O” on the primer either, but you probably also have it WITH the “O”, which I do not, since you picture it in your book.

To make sure I was clear, it was the “dnh St 1 41” with lacquered-steel case that I questioned.
The picture in your book seems to be one of the CWS-Steel case round. Perhaps your lacquered steel round, like mine, is actually from lot 1 of 1942, not from 1941?


#10

Sorry, I was unclear. All the dnh 1941 steel case rounds I have, regardless of which headstamp variation, are copper-washed. I don’t have a lacquered steel case from dnh earlier than 1942.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

the same box…http://www.naturabuy.fr/BOITE-A-CARTOUCHE-VIDE-DE-COLLECTION-RARISSIME-BOITE-DE-50-9-PARA-ALLEMANDE-WWII–item-713311.html


#12

The box was made for the German police.

Rgds


#13

Dutch - it seems odd that they would use the coded labels for German Police. Until very late in the war most police equipment I have seen has the full maker’s name on it (holsters, cartridge boxes, Mauser P-08 Pistols, P-38 Pistols, etc.). I had one of the last Walther P-38s ever made during the war - estimated date of production was Feb or March 1945, and it was a Walther “Mod.P38” as the collectors call them. Full, commercial markings from the plant at Zella Mehlis. There are a couple of known commercially-marked 50-round boxes from RWS that were for police.

Do you have any documentation, other than just the fact that it is a 50-round box (or that the 50-round boxes were ONLY made for police), that it is a police box?


#14

I don’t know if I have understood your comments correctly but Lew wrote that " every dnh 41" headstamp " is seen on CWS cases only.

I have a dnh * 41 9 mm Para round with brass case


#15

We don’t have any documents who say „this box is made for police use only“
It is the way ammo was used at the front. 2 Magazines Pistole 08. 16 rounds, for a MP 2 boxes.

Units who worked behind like police had a box in the drawer of the desk were they worked and did not carry spare ammo in boxes with them.

There were 16 round boxes supplied to the police. box of 1942 was also made for the police. Please notice the code from the cases on the 1942 label. The code “N” means Nürnberg (RWS)

The cases from the 1940 brass box have the RWS head stamp

Can also show some examples of 7.9 Mauser labels of Police used cartridges.

K from Karlsruhe (P28)
DWM Lübeck (edq)
Hirtenberg (am)

Rgds
Dutch


#16

Dutch: In the box label for the RWS 40 cartridges does the “S” in the primer data indicate Sinoxid? Jack


#17

Dutch - You know at lot more about this stuff than I, my dear friend, but I can think of reasons,
especially as early as the two 50-round military-type labels I have seen, why the Military might
have requested 50-round boxes. For example, training centers, were the new inductees are not
running around with loaded weapons or “loaded” load-carrying equipment, but are attending range
session. I am sure training and qualifications must have involved some target shooting (what
we called “known distance ranges” as opposed to combat ranges where combat was simulated and
live ammunition was used. For the purpose of simply live-fire training in the basics of marksmanship,
50-round boxes may have proved more efficient.

I have seen photo footage of ongoing German basic training (Army) and it did not appear much
different from that I went through in the 1950s in the American Army.

Since there were norms for Police box labeling, as you have shown, that did not involve the use of
the military code system for the most part, I just find it hard to think of the two box labels in
question, the one from this thread and the earlier one for brass-case ammo in the Curtis collection,
as police. They are pure military in the content form.

As I mentioned before, it is pretty clear that until very late in the war, materiel that was not expected
to leave the borders of Germany, ie: equipment of the civil police, were not coded. Police Holsters were
not, nor were pistols. I cannot speak for rifles and SMGS (MPs). There does become a point when it is
simpler to simply issue equipment in the military form to police, and I know that. No country embarks
upon aggressive war with the expectation that someday they will be fighting in the streets of their own
cities, so the policy of coding in the military fashion only equipment that might be captured on the battlefield, and
therefore lead to attacks on the factory that made them, was sensible. It was probably not thought that
equipment of the civil police, within the borders of Germany, was not in that category.

Just some random thoughts on the subject. As there is no documentation to show the boxes in question were
for the police, it appears that other than the form of the labels themselves, there is no documentation that
proves they were NOT for the police. So I guess “random thoughts and guesses” are all we really have for this
fascinating packaging.


#18

Jack, I think so. don’t have any proof.

Rgds


#19

Dutch: I’ll join you in voting for S=Sinoxid. Thanks much for posting the pic of the box label on this one; I’ve wondered for years what the story on that loading was. Jack


#20

I guess by 1942, they were no longer stamping the “O” on the primer cup of Sinoxid primers?
I have not seen a steel-cased 9 mm round with an “O” primer, that’s why I ask. I agree, by the
way, that the “S” on the label probably stands for Sinoxid.