9mm ID please

I have a couple of 9mmP rounds that I cannot identify. I am sure I have seen the first one elsewhere (most likely in Lew’s collection) but cannot find it again. The Search for “triangle” returns mainly Arabic and Burmese rounds but I don’t think this is what I have. I did find an old post (9x19mm "M38 9") that indicates that the M38 is (most likely) Italian in origin (possibly for export). The last post is from 2012, so I wonder if any new information has come to light?

The left one was manufactured by Heilongjiang North Tool Co.Ltd.

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Thank you. I’m guessing this was for export?

Yes,and exported by Norinco

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The one on the right is Italian. Its complete history has not been sorted out yet to my knowledge. There is even controversy over which factory made it. However, it most certainly is late WWII production, perhaps the last production headstamp of 9 mm Para in Italy during the War. It is certainly not commercial, and at such a late time, probably made for the Italian military, although it is likely that the Germans had pretty much usurped Italian Military Authority by the time this was made. With the disrupted supply lines at that time, I, personally, do not see it being an export round, unless you consider transfer to the German Occupiers of Italy (late in the war) “export.”

Wish we knew more about it. If one of our Italian friends has positive documentation on which factory made it, and other details, it would be great to hear from them.

John Moss

Magnum,
Great Information. All my commercial Chinese 9mm is simply identified as Norinco. I have no information on the individual headstamps.

Do you have a city where this factory is located?

Did they also make the two headstamps that are similar with a triangle and year but the caliber is shown as “9mm PAPA” on the 92 date and “9mm PARA” on the 91 dated cartridge?

Is the triangle the identity of the factory? There are other headstamps with the triangle but they also have “NIC” or “NRC” on the headstamps and date from the 1980s.

Again, many thanks!

Lew

John,
Here is the box.
image

I hope someone can identify it. I agree with you on the probable timing of this ammo.

Lew

Lew, any translation info on STRAPPARE?

Strappare = tear off

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Lew - That is an interesting box on a couple of levels. I have never seen a label like that, undeniably original to the box, of course. Normally, as you know, the weapon is identified as “Moschetto Automatico Beretta M° 38,” Not just as “Moschetto Mitragliatore.” Originally the word for Musket, “Moschetto” is a rifle in more modern Italian. I am not certain of the exact connotation of “Mitragliatore,” but it is a form of the word “Mitragliatrice” which is a “machine gun.” Even though there is a word for “Automatic” (“Automatico”), I would translate that into Automatic Rifle as a preferred American-English translation, or Machine Rifle, to me a more awkward translation into English.

Every single box of that style I have in my own collection, five or six with differences, from the WWII Era and most after WWII as well, are from Fiocchi, Lecco. However, the word “Strappare” (perfectly translated by Vlad) is in plain letters on all of those from WWII. I have two boxes with that word in serifed letters, both from GFL, one in grey cardboard and one in tan (buff) cardboard, but both are from the same date, 1/65, although likely different lot numbers.

If it is confirmed that your box is the correct one for the headstamp in question, one must wonder why “Strappare” uses those letters if the box is from the mid-1940s, 20 years prior to the only boxes I have seen with that letter style.

I have a box that came with five rounds of the M38 9 headstamp. Actually, I still have three of them -one in my collection, one in my dupes, and one in the box. Guess I gave away the other two. It is anonymous, with only three lines of print. However, clearly, another three lines of print, originally between the lines there, have been exorcised from the box. Other than that, it is one of the standard box markings represented in my collection as well. I have not mentioned that box because I had no guarantee, even with five rounds in the box, that they were the original contents. I would think so, but it cannot be proven without finding a full, unopened box and checking the contents. Not likely to happen! My box has the word “Strappare” in plain letters.

Was your box (the one you show on this thread), full when you got it?

By the way, I am not challenging any aspect of the identification of your box. When you have never seen a label like that before, there is no basis for challenging what it was, or was not for.

Interesting stuff. I think we are still in the woods on the complete history of the M38 9 headstamp, with just those entries standing alone. I think we are safe in saying it is Italian, but the who, why and where of it is, in my mind, yet to be solved.

edited to change the word “with” to “without” in one of the sentences.

John Moss

Thank you all for the responses - great information.

John,
I have disassembled a number of these cartridges and my recollection is that they have a small square flake powder. A 9M38F 1944 round has a small round flake powder, very different from the M38 9.

The box is in Italy but reportedly came with almost a full box of the M38 9 ammunition. I do not have a similar box with the oversize “50”.

All my WWII boxes military and colonial police boxes, back to 1938 have Strappare on the end, but some of my post war boxes lack this marking.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: I have another box of these cartridges, full, but it is plain unmarked cardboard and I am confident it is a repack

Lew - you did not mention if any of your boxes with the tear off tab, from WWII, are from any factory other than Fiocchi. That is a very important detail. Also, you don’t mention if any of the pre-1946 boxes have the “Strappare” in serifed letters - another possibly important detail.

John

“Strappare” is also on the 7 round
M34 9mm Corto Packets.
Doc AV

John,
I have the Bologna box below with “Strappare” I think all my WWII boxes have it but too much trouble to look.

I should pay more attention to what I put in my computer. Blow is a photo of a full box of the “M38 9” rounds. Like the previous box, it has no manufacturer identified.

I did notice this box has serif letters on the STRAPPARE and so do my post war GFL boxes (62 & 67) but that my WWII boxes I looked at all lack the serifs??? Howedver my 1948 GFL box also lacks serifs.

Still no answers.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew,the triangel is the trademark of Heilongjiang North Tool Co.Ltd.,located in Mudanjiang City in Heilongjiang province.

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Magnum,
Thanks for this information! Greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew - no worry friend. I asked about what I felt was incomplete information, and I forgot to mention that when I mentioned all of my “Strappare” boxes were from GFL, I was only talking about 50-round boxes. Stupid of me.

My box with M38 9 headstamp looks like yours, but again, yours is obviously totally original while mine seems to have had three other lines of print rubbed out. Also, mine does not have the serifs on the letters in “Strappare.”

Seems these rounds were packed in all sorts of boxes. Maybe some day we will get the full story of this cartridge.

John