9MM Luger High Standard T117


#1

Can anyone identify these 2 bullets? They are both headstamed REM-UMC 9 M/M LUGER with flat nickel primers; the pointed one has purple primer sealant on it. The bullets are both magnetic, and both have a small step about .005 smaller than the large front dia.
Thank You Carolyn


#2

These two bullets are experimentals for a High Standard experimental autopistol which was tested in the 50. It was intended for adoption by the USAF. From memory the round was the F-17 E 1. These are the two most common of a whole series of experimental bullets involved with the development of this pistol. Both were nice items 40 years ago and are difficult to find today. Congratulations!

Cheers,

Lew


#3

Both loadings have T numbers assigned:

T117 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .35 Pistol
T117E1 Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .35 Pistol

High Standard T3 pistol from 1948:


#4

Was that the pistol model with an unlocked breech and the groove in the chamber wall? I’ve never seen a picture of it. In what ways were the characteristics of those rounds different from conventional 9mm ammunition?


#5

Yes, thats the one. I guess that Erlmeier-Brandt classified this round as a different caliber because of the outside measurable diameter of the bullet (8,85-8,90 mm / .348-.350"). The real bullet diameter and case was standard for a normal 9 mm Parabellum.


#6

There are several variations of the pistol:


#7

Does anyone know how mant different bullet types there are? Any chance would some pictures be able to be posted


#8

Here are a sample of the headstamps. There are minor variations beyond these basic shapes, mostly in finish and slightly different shapes.

All of the cases below have REM-UMC 9M/M LUGER cases with no case knurl except for the RN which is a PETERS case.

Top left is just a steel cylinder with the edges rounded. The other side of the bullet is painted Purple. The top middle looks similar to your turned steel round but this one is a HP as indicated. The blunt RN GM load is a proof load. There are a series of these High Standard loads like this with dark blue or dark purple case heads, and occasionally one with no case head color. This round has a
dark blue head and a small red tip and is a proof load.

The next two rows are various bullet shapes, sometimes blued and sometimes with another finish. The 2nd row far right is a bullet that is a steel rod tight in a GM tube so it appears to be a GM bullet with an exposed steel tip. All the other bullets, except for the red tip proof round are solid steel/iron.

Cheers,

Lew


#9

Does anyone know the purpose of what appears to be a small hook or latch below the pistol’s muzzle? Does it have anything to do with the hinged trigger guard? Why all the work with steel bullets? I’d think the point should have been to design a pistol that would function with run-of-the-mill 9mm cartridges.


#10

The hook on the front of the pistol was to retain the rotated trigger guard in the forward position, I believe so that the pistol could be used with large winter gloves. One of the pistols is shown with the trigger guard folded forward in the pictures on this thread.


#11

I have 3 variations, the two CAROLYN pictures which Fede identifies as T117 for I am assuming the one on the left and T117E1 for the pointed one on the right. I also have a hollow point round as Lew pictures in the middle. What is the designation for the hollow point version?

Joe


#12

I believe the cartridge with PETER’s headstamp and a more or less conventional FMJ bullet, is a proof load for the pistols. At least, that is what I have always been told.


#13

All three I have, the pointed, the truncated solid and truncated hollow point have “REM-UMC 9m/m LUGER” headstamps. What is the hollow point designation?

Joe


#14

A 90 page report on the development of the caliber .35 T117E1 cartridge can be downloaded from www.dtic.mil (AD-071619)


#15

Jochem, thanks a lot for pointing out this report!


#16

Also see lot 596 in our latest sale.

Also found with a blue base but no red tip and shorter over all length than the one Lew shows.


#17

I couldn’t find the report. What search words did you use??

Cheers,
Lew


#18

Lew

AD-071619


#19

This should be the full link:

dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0071619


#20

Interesting read, but need the previous report to see the other prototypes shapes and specifications. The link you give reads mostly for the final product T117-E-1.It talks some about the other 13 previous projectiles, but gives no dimensions or other characteristics other than “Experimental bullet 13-E”, the final before settling on T117-E-1 in this second development contract. The hollow point truncated one I have is obviously one of the previous, but who knows which designation?

joe