9mm Luger Italian GFL for Mauser Mod.16 pistol


#1

Here are pics of box and unheadstamped ammo out of this box.
Why it is stamped for 9mm Mauser and not 9mm Parabellum…and what is the Mauser Mod 1916 pistol??

Here the ammo:


#2

I’ve never seen the Mauser C96 chambered for the 9m/m Luger referred to as the Model of 1916, but that is the date that production of this variant began for the German armed forces. Jack


#3

1916 is the correct Year for the Mauser “Red Nine” supply of C96 design Pistols to the German (and Austro-Hungarian) Armies.

Since Italy was part of the WW I Allies, this Packet is Most Likely Late WWI Production (captured Pistols on Italian Front) or Postwar ( Booty & Reparations) supply.

Italy did issue the M1899 Mauser Marina Pistol (Navy) but these were in 7,63.

The M1916 Label was also to distinguish the Mauser Marina from the Red Nine for non-German users. (IMO)

Doc AV

Doc AV


#4

PS, it is a commercial Packet, so most likely Post 1919.

Doc AV


#5

Post 1945


#6

Forensic - The box label does not call the cartridge "9 mm Mauser"
as opposed to “9 mm Parabellum.” It simply says that the cartridges
are for the Mauser Model 1916 Automatic Pistol. I suspect the wording
was to avoid confusion with the 9 x 25 mm Mauser cartridge.

norby973 - Do you have documentation of this cartridge and box being
"Post 1945?" The earliest Post-1945 Fiocchi catalog that I have does not
show this cartridge for the Mauser 1916 pistol, but rather simply the 9 mm
Parabellum and then mentions that it has a copper bullet. However, the
1926 Fiocchi Catalog specifically mentions “Co. 9 per Pistola Mauser,” and
the picture of the cartridge, which is clearly 9 x 19 mm and NOT 9 x 25 mm
shows the same ogive FMJ RN bullet as does Forensic’s nice picture of the
cartridge in profile.

The box strikes me as being of an earlier style than Post-1945, although I will
admit that sometimes the box art on these is deceiving.

John Moss


#7

this box is from before WWII

in all the Fiocchi price lists from 1923 to 1938 they make a difference between :

  • cal 9 mm per pistole autom Glisenti Mod 1910 e Beretta Mod 1915
  • cal 9 mm per pistola automatica Parabellum
  • cal 9 mm per pistola autom Mauser 1916

they have different reference numbers but are at the same price

jp


#8

John, the comment posted by norby973 is correct, this box can’t be from before WWII. The clue here is the label indicating “S. p. A.” (Società per Azioni) instead of “S. A.” (Società anonima), a corporation form change that was implemented in Italy after April 1942. I don’t know the exact date when the change took place in Fiocchi’s designation, but my earliest document dates from 1947 and the earliest box I have seen with these markings contain .380 Auto cartridges dated 1946.

Regards,

Fede


#9

I have two different answers, both from people who are expert in European
ammunition. So, I am confused.

On the one hand, it explanation of the initials S.p.A. seems definitive. I have been
wrong for years, thinking that “S.p.A.” stood for “Societa privata Anonima,” the same
basically as the Spanish “S.A.”

On the other hand is the catalog information, which did not seem to list the “Cartucce
9 mm per Pistole Automatiche” after the war. and the fact that the picture in a 1926
Fiocchi catalog so perfectly matches the photograph by Forensic. Also, I would not
have thought that Fiocchi was still producing unheadstamped ammunition so late as
post-1945.

Forensic - does that box have anything on it (perhaps the bottom) that could be a date
code?

Anyone - does anyone have a picture of a box with similar box art from a post-war dated
catalog, or does anyone have a box of the same pattern and color arrangement, even if
for a different caliber, with ammunition of a dated headstamp in it?

As it stands now, I have to believe that it IS post-war, due to Fede’s fine explanation of the
origin and meaning of the appellation “S.p.A.” However, it surprises me.

John Moss


#10

John,
I have the box pictured and there are no markings on it anywhere that could be a date code!

Lew


#11

thanks Lew. Just a shot in the dark. I didn’t figure there would be.

John


#12

Hello

Fede is right .

Fiocchi changed the name from SA to SpA in November 1947.

In the 1951 (English language) and the 1955 and 1961 (Itallian language) they show only:

  • 9 mm for Glisenti Mod 1910 and Beretta Mod 1915
  • 9 mm for Parabellum
  • 9 mm for Luger

In the 1951 (italian language) I unfortunately have only the pages about shotshells therefore I cannot give you info

JP


#13

Jeanpierre - thank you. With guys like you and Fede now in
agreement, I accept that as absolute documentation. It appears
that they made this loading for the 1916 Mauser for at least
21 years - 1926 thru 1947, and of course, maybe longer, without
change. Next thing for me is to search my collection and see if
I have one! :-)

Thank you. It was an interesting discussion. More and more, I
will admit, I am somewhat reluctant to accept things about ammo
as fact without documentation. I have found way too many cases
over the years where it was proven absolutely wrong. In this instance,
norby973 was absolutely correct. Thanks to him for starting this path
to verifying that.

John Moss


#14

hello John

this loading was existing from 1923 (and not 1926) to 1948 for sure.

Pretty sure it started before 1923 but I don’t have after WWI price lists from before 1923.(I
I know there are at least 2 of them existing, I saw them at a guy home)

And surely till the end of the forties.

The point where I mistook when I replied first is because I checked only the catalogues of 1951 and after where there is no mention of “automatic pistol Mauser 1916”.

A point to get a more accurate range would be to find an after WWII Fiocchi price list from before 1951 (I saw it once on an auction website) but I don’t have it.

Italian documentation is very hard to get because the Italian people are very secret and furthermore when they sell something they ask for crazy prices. (look on eBay the price of catalogues, posters, powder bottles, aso)

JP


#15

Jeanpierre - thank you for filling in the dates a bit. My spread only
could take into account information from my own catalogs, and what
was on this thread already. So now, we know this cartridge was made
for at least 25 years. Considering the small amount of the 9 x 19 mm
caliber Mauser pistols that were likely in Italy, that is amazing of itself!

It was not likely commercial ammunition for domestic sales in Italy, since
that was a military caliber prohibited to civilians.

John Moss