9mm Mauser pistol manufacture P635


#1

I have this new acquisition from Tommy Fallon’s collection of Boulder City NV. It is a 9mm Mauser supposedly made by Gustloff-Werke, Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik, Hirtenberg Niederdonau. Have seen plenty of these with headstamp DWM and three number and following letter, but never with a P code. Are these rare, or is it just that I am a novice. Brass case and primer. Magnetic projectile. Slight red primer annulus still left. Three stab bullet crimp.

Joe





#2

Not a rare headstamp. The tougher “P” to find is the P28.


#3

Related older post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6747&p=47199&hilit=greece#p47199


#4

xjda68,
the DWM headstamp you mention is commercial production, the number being the identifier used by DWM for “9 mm Mauser” case. The P635 is the German military code for identifying the manufacturer as you correctly write (Hirtenberger factory seized from Mandl and named after a Nazi who died early).


#5

[quote=“JPeelen”]xjda68,
the DWM headstamp you mention is commercial production, the number being the identifier used by DWM for “9 mm Mauser” case. The P635 is the German military code for identifying the manufacturer as you correctly write (Hirtenberger factory seized from Mandl and named after a Nazi who died early).[/quote]

Correct. My notes also indicate there is a 9mm Mauser pistol round with headstamp “DWM6”


#6

Not sure, but I believe the DWM 6 round is most-likely the rimmed revolver cartridge.


#7

My note only states I found reference for 9mm Mauser centerfire pistol on a IAA price sheet. Maybe the headstamp noted was for the Mauser Model 1878 Zig-Zag revolver cartridge? Unfortunately I do not know. I have looked at the current price sheet and it is still on there and does not stipulate for a novice such as myself.

Joe


#8

Hi Joe,

On the A.E.C.C website http://www.municion.org/9x25/9x25.htm are several headstamps for the 9x25 mauser depicted


#9

It seems to be P635 also made cartridges with a CN bullet.

I have this round with what it seems a GFL M38 9mm head stamp.
It has a 25mm case. Did the Italian use this calibre?

Rgds
Dutch


#10

Italy (Fiocchi) Made 9x25 Mauser Ammo for Hungary (whose SMG was in that Calibre)…and used the M938 (MAB) Headstamp.

Doc AV


#11

I have read before that the Italian 9 x 25 mm Mauser cartridges from 1943, with “9M38” headstamp, were made for Hungary. Does anyone have any documentation for that statement. I am not disputing it. I simply have never seen any documentation of any type for that assertion. Since the Italian Armed Forces were active in the Axis’ campaign in Greece, and since 9 mm Mauser Caliber MP 34 (õ) were used by the Greek Mechanized Police under the authority of the Ministry of Security (Ypourgion Asfalias), which was disbanded by the Germans around 1941, there are possibilities that Italy acquired a quantity of weapons in this caliber and made the ammunition for themselves.

Hungary was already making the 9 mm Mauser cartridge before 1943 at Fég and c.1943 production began at Magyar Lõoszermüvek Rt., of Vesprém and lasted thru 1944. The cartridge was designated as 9 m/m 39 m Mauser. One wonders why with production at full swing in Hungary, and some production in Austria and Germany (although perhaps not for Hungary) they would need what was likely a relatively small production run from Fiocchi. I am assuming that the run was fairly small, since Fiocchi did not bother to use any special headstamp, but rather for ID, simply used their 1943 9 x 19 MM M38 headstamp. That could be, of course, an incorrect assumption.

As mentioned already, “DWM 6” identifies the 9 x 25 mm R MB Mauser Revolver, and has nothing to do with the 9 x 25 mm “Mauser Export” cartridge. The 9 x 25 mm self-loading pistol cartridge was identified by the DWM case numbers 487, and 487D. Number 487A was a 21 mm Case Length, 487B a 20 mm case length (I have never seen a true photo of this cartridge or its headstamp),and 487 C was a 19 mm case length, identical in appearance to 9 mm Para cartridges except for linear bullet crimps just below the case mouth, and was specifically for the Model 1912/14 Mauser Pistol.


#12

I confirm that the doubts of John were correct. The new explanation stems from the discovery of a specimen of Scotti OM42 a machine gun in the intention of the manufacturer (the “mythical” Scotti) had to be chambered for the 9 x 25 Mauser. and 'probable, therefore, that given the paucity of demand for ammunition to be able to carry out tests of the weapon the Fiocchis has proposed, evidently with a contract was successful, to produce one or more lots by changing the cut length of the cartridge cases of M38 9 already in the production, whole without changing the original headstamp, and lowering production costs.
Sorry for my bad english
for more info
http://www.munizioni.eu/munizioni/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:le-9-x-25-mauser-italiane&catid=13:italiane
Giovanni


#13

I ran it through my Word translator:

"The existence of this cartridge has always been a source of considerable debate.This is the classic cal cartridge. 9 x 25 mm . Mauser in this case produced in 1943 by the (Fiocchi) (also speaks a lot in 1942 but for now I have not found confirmation on) but with a bottom mark identical to that of the contemporary 9 M38.

Already the choice of that cartridge poses doubts on likely recipients as any nation except the axis Hungary adopted officially weapons in this caliber.

But also true that it also produced in the same period with even a version with painted steel case, the fact that the cartridge has a brand ad hoc identification seems rather strange because it is the only example of print cartridge from (Fiocchi) with trademarks belonging to another model.

Having said that to date, mainly abroad, the official version is that of one or more lots manufactured from (Fiocchi) for Hungary.

In 2009 but Pettinelli has proposed a new explanation for the inconsistency described above and personally I find this new hypothesis as more likely to explain the “mystery”.

It all stems from the discovery of a specimen of Scotti OM42 a submachine gun in the intention of the manufacturer (the “mythical” Scotti) was to be chambered for the 9 x 25 Mauser. It is likely, therefore, that given the scarcity of ammunition to be able to carry out the tests of the weapon the Fiocchi has proposed, evidently with a contract went to porto, to produce one or more lots by changing the length of the cartridge case without changing the original punch by lowering production costs."


#14

That could well be the case with the Fiocchi 9 x 25s with 9 mm Para headstamp. However, it is not the only instance of Fiocchi using the wrong headstamp on a cartridge. The very same 9M38 headstamp was also used on some 9 mm Glisenti ammunition, for which it is definitely not the correct marking. Since the Glisenti pistol and those carbines and SMGs chambered for the 9 mm Glisenti cartridge had likely been relegated to a “Substitute-Standard” position in the Italian arsenal in WWii, it is likely that only small lots of ammunition were needed for them, and it simply was cheaper and easier to use the 9M38 cases loaded to Glisenti standard, with lighter powder charge and truncated-cone bullet. That would increase the likelihood, in my eyes, that the 9 x 25 mm Mauser version with the 9M38 headstamp were made for captured or otherwise acquired (in small quantity) weapons. Of course, it is possible that the ammunition was used for both that purpose and for testing the Scotti designs.

It is not just the fact that Hungary was in full production of 9 mm Mauser ammunition (primarily in steel cases) by the time the Fiocchi rounds in question were made, but also that the box label for the Fiocchi 9 x 15 rounds is in the Italian language. Further, it obviously was a small-quantity run because the label is a reproduction of a hand-typed label, printed on the back of blue labels from 1939 intended for the 9M34 Pistol, caliber 9 mm Corto (.380 Auto), and glued to a prewar, anonymous, but known Fiocchi, commercial box originally labeled and intended for the 7.63 x 25 mm Mauser Pistol, a cartridge which has the same basic OAL as the 9 x 25 mm and which works just as well for the latter.

I am still not willing to discount that any of this ammunition might have reached Hungary. However, I have still not personally seen any convincing documentation of that assertion, and the other possibilities, including the use of an incorrect headstamp for purposes of convenience. and the case of the packaging leads me to give more credence to the opinions about its use that I have expressed. Everything, to me, points to small-quantity production providing an ammunition supply for a limited amount of weapons in use.


#15

John,

Not my field of expertise, however I agree with your comments. We have seen in Australia a similar thing when Footscray used a 9mm bunter on some .38 Spl cases. For small lots it makes sense to save tooling costs.


#16

Looking at the “P635” 9x25 case stamp, it is in typical Wehrmacht ID style…so this particular cartridge was for an Official German Wehrmacht use, and as Austrian (Steyr) SMGs were utilised in many 1940s and 41 Actions by the Wehrmacht (Low Countries, France, Greece etc) it is plausible that this cartridge was part of a Normal Wehrmacht acquisition…NON-Wehrmacht acquisitions in the pre 1942-3 Period would have had “Commercial” headstamps (such as “DWM” etc.), especially for the SS. (which was NOT part of the Wehrmacht supply chain until Speer re-organised the Munitions Ministry in 1943.).

Has anybody seen a “Post-1940” ( three letter code) 9x25 Cartridge???

Doc AV


#17

Yes - the code “dnh” appears on 9 x 25 mm Mauser, on both brass and steel cases. Further, for earlier ammo, the codes “P28” and “P.405” also appear on this caliber. The headstamp “B DWM B” appears on a steel-case round, and is as shown here, with no six o’clock entry on the headstamp, where the case number “403” would normally be found.