9mm Mauser/Remington Kleanbore?


#1

Does anyone happen to know when Remington made 9mm Mauser ammo? It’s in the green box with the dogbone shaped thing on the front.


#2


#3

Based on my experience with 9mm Luger boxes:

1931-about 1937 if the back is in Spanish & English

about 1938 - 1946 the back of the box is all in English

Sometime between 1947 and 1956 the Dogbone box was dropped-and I suspect it was earlier than later but don’t have the box data to substantiate that.

On the back is probably a code stamped that contains both letters and numbers. This is a coded date when the box was loaded. Post that code and we can pin it down a bit.

Note that the box styles are a pretty rough way to date them because Remington appeared to use old style boxes until they were out before going to the new style boxes. My guess is that calibers that sold in higher quantities changed styles closer to the decision to change than did calibers where sales were slower and the old boxes may have been used longer.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Thanks Lew. I bought them to shoot in an old Sauer sporting rifle but I thought before I did, maybe I should check to see how old they were. They will arrive in a few days and I’ll look for a code and post it. Thanks.


#5

Lew–I would disagree in this case about using up old boxes. Because of the paper drives of WW-II I doubt if Remington carried over many, if any, boxes from before the war. Also, starting in 1946 with the resumption of civilian production, Remington redid ALL the Load Index Numbers for ALL the loads. The Rxxx series was used from 1931 to 1942. Starting in 1946 a 4 digit number with NO R was used. The 1st two numbers are the load type and the last two are the caliber. Also, 1942 was the last year of production for the R539 9mm Mannlicher and Mauser round. This load was not produced when production was resumed in 1946.


#6

RememberBaker–I failed to answer your question as to when Remington produced the 9mm Mauser and Mannlicher. The first catalog to list it was the 1918-19. It is interesting that the first listing separated the 9mm Mauser and the 9mm Mannlicher into two different cartridges. This continued until at least 1923. I have no catalogs for 1924-1926. By 1927 it was listed as 9mm Mauser and Mannlicher. The last was 1942. That style box was used from used from 1930-1933. The DuPont logo was added in 1934.


#7

Ron, I screwed up on my post and somehow mixed two different statements into one. We are about to leave on a trip for about 4 weeks and there is a lot to do. I probably got distracted and mixed two different thoughts. Sorry for the confusion-I have corrected my post.

I do know that some of the dogbone labels, like 9mm Luger, carried over until at least 1946. I have a dogbone box with a code indicating the 15th day of the 2nd half of 1946 and an overlabel dated “Jul 15 1946”. I disagree that the older style labels would have been trashed or sent to paper drives. Companies would consider them serviceable labels and only order the new label design when the old design was running out of stock. Why spend $s on new labels when the old ones were in stock and working fine? The R# on this box is the same as the prewar R#.

My next latest dogbone box is dated the second half of 1943. It also has the R#.

Clearly Ron, you know lots more about Remington and their production of 9mm Mauser than I ever will. I can only go by the evidence on the boxes.

I sure wish I had more data from Dogbone boxes and green boxes without the Dogbone and with the white Kleanbore to close that gap between 1947 and 1957

Ron, or anyone, how would I distinguish between a Remington box with the white Kleanbore as being pre-1957 and Post 1957???

I have three boxes that could be 1960 or 1949, 1961 or 1950 and 1963 or 1952.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated!!!

Cheers,
Lew


#8

Ron, the 1918-19 catalog is not the first to list it but seems to be the first reference to illustrate the 9x57 Mauser and 9x56 Mannlicher-Schönauer cartridges with a REM-UMC 9 M/M headstamp. Both cartridges were announced as new in the UMC June 1909 price list and illustrated with a UMC 9 M/M headstamp in Remington-UMC catalogs at least until 1913-14.


#9

Fede–You are correct about it being listed in the 1909 U.M.C. catalog. I stand corrected. Thank you. When I checked the Remington-UMC catalogs and not finding it until the 1918-19 catalog, I never thought to check the U.M.C. catalogs. I just went back to double check the Rem-UMC catalogs for 1911-12 and 1913-14, and again, you are correct. I missed them in both catalogs earlier, They are are also listed in the 1915-16 and 1917 catalogs. Again I missed them because I did not notice that in the 1911-1917 catalogs they listed all the metric rifle cartridges as a group and not strictly by caliber as they did starting in the 1918-19 catalog. I dropped the ball on this one by not being more through in my research. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.


#10

Ron, thanks to you, without your invaluable help many of these catalogs wouldn’t be available to most of us and this kind of research would be impossible.


#11

Fede–Thanks for the kind words. I could not do it without a LOT of help from many collectors for loaning catalogs to scan. Now if we could just Aaron to post the 500+ catalogs I have sent him that he has not posted!!!