9mm Para-Huck vs Bakelettfabrikken Blanks


#1

This topic is complex and importent enough that I decided to start a new thread. If we get some useful answers, I will write this up for the Journal!

Below are the two key postings from the previous thread.

Morten-Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:05 pm
Dear John, my friend

Cartridge no. 3 from left at the upper image, is believed to be one of the very first blanks made by Bakelittfabrikken, or Nammo Bakelittfabrikken AS, which is the correct name after it became a part of Nammo in July 2005.

Lars Ringdal’s patent no. 86129, applied for June 27th, 1953 and granted July 2nd, 1955, describes a blank cartridge very similar to this one. There are, however, two known versions of this cartridge:

To my knowledge, the left one is only registered with German steel cases. This may be one of the reasons it has been taken for a German cartridge. There were large quantities of German ammunition in Norway after WW2, so the use of German cases is not surprising. The right cartridge, which is somewhat less scarce than the left one, is seen both with Italian brass cases and German steel cases. Both cartridges probably date to 1953-1954.

As early as May 5th, 1954, i.e. before his first patent was granted, Ringdal applied for a new patent, which was granted July 2nd, 1955. Patent no. 86131 describes a blank cartridge with a metal base and a plastic body.

The left cartridge is believed to be the result of patent no. 86131. A box dated August 1956 is known to exist, as do some loose cartridges in red plastic. The right cartridge is quite similar to the left one, except for the colour. It is said to be a Huck product, but this is still an open question. I have a Huck box dated “1/I/56” in my collection, and it contains cartridges with brass cases and white plastic “bullets”, totally different from the cartridge in question.

Well, John, this doesn’t sort it out once and for all, there are still answers to be given. But I feel quite comfortable with these four cartridges in my “Norway” drawer, though the white one might be questionable.

Morten

John Moss replied[quote]Morten - on very close examination of my blanks, I am now in utter confusion. Firstly, I have the reduced diameter bullet version in steel case. Mine is in an “hrn” case. In fact, yours is the first I have seen that is not, but rather in an “fb” case. I have seven headstamps in the brass-cased one that you show, including that scarce BEAUX headstamp. It has a bullet exactly of the same orange-red color as the reduced diameter bullet. My brass-cased ones are in a mixture of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese (SPC) cases, plus an unheadstamped case and a “K DWM K 480C” case.

Now, I have a steel cased round, “kam” case, with round nose orange-red bullet, but the bullet is seated out farther, and is a slightly different shade than any of the others. I also have a bullet only of the same type, and a line around it indicates it was seated, or meant to be seated, to the same depth as the one in the “kam” case. I don’t know if the bullet design is the same as the other round-nose ones, but again, the color tone is quite different. Now, all of these rounds are brass primer.

In white pointed plastic bullet with the four pre-fracture lines on it, that are supposed to be huck for sure, I have a number and the headstamps of the brass case are the same sort of assortment as the red ones, primarily Spanish and Italian, with unheadstamped as well. To me, these cases are among the least likely to have been in Norway following the war. They are, for the most part, post-war headstamps from the late 1940s or early 1950s, not stuff left over from the German occupation. Of course, they could have been purchased on the scrap market. Now, some of the “Huck” types have copper primers, but some have brass primer cups identical to those in the cases loaded with the orange-red bullets.

The all white plastic case and bullet with brass head and copper primer is on the list of Huck rounds, supposedly made in 1956, in the presentation prepared by someone in Germany. I will admit, though, that it looks more Norwegian to me than do the ones with orange-red bullets. Oddly, the orange-red bullets are not on the Huck list, which considering everything you would think they might be, even if in error, due to the almost identical mix of brass cases. Among the Uck rounds are also black pointed plastic, and a dark red plastic point bullet round. I wonder if that one is Norwegian.

I am really back to the drawing board on this. The only one I am comfortable with as being Norwegian is the steel-cased round with the bullet seated farther out, now that i look at all of them. I wish I had a dupe of the one with the orange-red bullet in brass case, as I would love to cut it open and see the entire “bullet.” The plastic bullet of the type from the “kam” case obviously bottoms out on the internal base of the cartridge case (it is 16.88m/m in length)and is hollow for 15.28m/m of its length.

I hope you guys can sort this out I am confused beyond making any changes yet in how I have catalogued these. I am not saying anyone is wrong - I am just saying that now I don’t know what any of them are.

I’m going to let you and Lew sort this out. If either of you has a dupe of the brass case, lighter orange-bulleted rounds, why not try looking at the bullet to see if it is the same as the one in the steel “kam” case? Look very closely at the color tones too, and if you have ones you think are Huck, compare headstamps and primer cups. I have no answers for this, only questions.


John Moss

[/quote]


#2

Now I will try to add to the confusion!

First I’ll try to deal with the white plastic dummy that Morten showed.

I have two white plastic dummies with blunt tips. One (with a struck primer) I have labeled as Bakelittfabrikken and the other as Huck (it came out of an old and excellent German collection).



I believe these are two different blanks. Note the thinness of the brass rim above the groove but below the plastic on the blank on the right which I have cataloged as Bakelittfabrikken manufacturer. The construction of the brass base piece is somewhat different, and the lines on the tip are longer on the Huck blank. I think these are two distinct blanks, but their similarity is too great to be accidential. I have to believe there was collaberation between Bakelittfabrikken at some point on these blanks. Remember, these were among the very earliest all plastic blanks that I know of in 9mmP.

More later on Huck and Bakelittfabrikken blanks.


#3

These are interesting blanks. I have only one of them. It is interesting that they are actually 9 x 20, not 9 x 19mm, and many still believe, I think, that they are 9mm Browning Long. I do not agree with that assessment myself.
They may have been an experiment with a special blank barrel with a deeper chamber, tapered in bore so the SMG would work full automatically, and with the chamber deeper to prevent accidental firing of ball ammunition. The Danes use such a device, and their most current blanks are longer from base to “case mouth” by quite some bit than a 9mm Para cartridge.

The two blanks shown by Lew seem definitely to be two different runs. I have no opinion on who made which, but the explanation given is perfectly logical if there was collaboration between the two factories, and I believe there probably was.


#4

Here is the rest of the story, as I understand it, including the parts I don’t understand.

Below are 4 plastic blanks which I have attributed to Bakelittfabrikken. I think the time is the 1950s which is consistent with Morten’s information.


Note that the white is the one I illustrated in my post above and the black with the aluminum base appears identical to the one Morten posted where there is a box to ID it. Note also that all have the same thin segment of brass below the plastic, unlike the thicker brass segment on the translucent white Huck blank.

The following group are steel and brass case blanks I have attributed to Bakelittfabrikken. These all have a case mouth crimp. Note the one on the right has the hrn headstamp and appears very similar/identical to Morten’s with the fb headstamp. Next to it is a round with the rfo headstamp and a roll crimp holding the plastic bullet. The other two are two seperate examples of the BEAUX headstamped brass case load also illustrated by Morten which also have roll crimps. Note the variation between the two BEAUX loads. My notes say that the roll crimp loads are “Ringdale” (Ringdal) patent.


Lars Ringdal of Oslo Norway holds a US patent from 1982 on “Method of producing molded bodies of expanded plastic” with Bakelittfabrikken as the assignee. A Lars Ringdal of Juan-les-Pins, FR holds a 1979 patent which references Norwegian Patent 760525 titled “Ammunition cartridge” which is for live or blank cases made of plastic with a metal base. The assignee is KUPAG of Switzerland. There are a number of other patents but none that appear relevant to the cartridges under question. The drawing on the one patent is of a metal base plug that looks like that on the all plastic blanks;

The following four blanks are clearly made by Huck and well documented. All occur on a wide varity of brass cases. The dates on the cases indicate manufacture in the mid to late 1950, but not later.


Note that there are two versions of the blank with the pink granduals in the bullet, one is translucent and one is transparent, and perhaps a slightly different shape. All the bullets are plastic.

The 3 blanks below are also attributed to Huck. One is the white plastic illustrated in the previous posting. The red pointed bullet is paper and the blunt red bullet is plastic. These two occur in a wide varity of headstamps and date from the mid to late 1950.


Note how similar the blunt plastic bullet blank is to the Bakelittfabrikken loads, but this one lasks the roll crimp at the case mouth, other wise they are hard to distinguish, again indicating some kind of relationship between Bakelittfabrikken and Huck during this period.

Finally, there are two blanks with kam headstamps from my collection. One has been ascribed to Bakelittfabrikken and the other to Huck. The kam headstamped blanks are in the middle, flanked by a right by a Bakelittfabrikken blank with the Ringdal case mouth crimp and on the right by the Huck blank without this crimp. The style of bullets on these kam blanks is clearly different in shape from either of the other two blanks, but perhaps closer to the Bakelittfabrikken. Who made them???

I would like to see the illustrations from the Norwegian patents that Morten mentions, and any other information on this set of blanks.

Perhaps some German member of the Forum knows of a relationship between Huck and Bakelittfabrikken in the 1950s. Are there other similar blanks from the 1950s in other calibers that could tie the two companies together???

John, did I capture the types of blanks from your collection that you mentioned in your email? If not, it would perhaps be useful to post them as part of the thread.

All help appreciated.

Lew


#5

I have two simular Norway Blanks in caliber .30M1.
One with a Norway headstamp RA 45 and one with the USA headstamp L C 4.


There are also "more modern look-a-like cartridges in caliber .45 ACP. and .38 Spl.
The ,45 ACP is a cartidge made by Geco and is the "Shock Defence 90 grains bullet.

The .38 Spl is an "Short Stop"
These were made later in the timefraim and must not be confused with the Bakelit and Huck fabrications.


#6

Lew,

You captured all I have and, of course, more. I have most of the types you show, though. What is the difference in the two “kam” ones you show, both lot 7 of 41 on the headstamp? Just wondered. They look so identical, including the lot number, I find it hard to think they were loaded at two different factories.

I have none of the blunt orange plastic bullet blanks with the roll crimp, so looks like the guy I got them from was right in saying they were huck, even though as I recall, they are not on the list. However, my one with BEAUX CAL.9 headstamp has a four position mouth crimp which is very unusual. These are not stab crimps in the usual sense we use that term.They are 2.08mm in length (0.0815 inch) and rounded at the bottom, but end right at the top edge of the case - it is like the case mouth is bent in towards the bullet. I doubt that a scan would show this feature at all, but I will try for it.
If I do a scan, I will include my kam steel-cased blank along with the separate projectile that I think is the one in that cartridge. If no scan shows up latter, you will know it simply didn’t work for me.


#7

John,

I think the two kam St+ 7 41 loads are identical. I just got them with two different attributions. If I can figure out a good way to pull a bullet, maybe I will give it a try.

Cheers, Lew


#8

r308, Are you sure your RA 45 .30 Carbine was not originally a WRA 45 case? And what is the earliest RA .30 Carbine ball round from Norway, that you know of?
Thanks much,
sam


#9

Hallo SAM,

You were right the headstamp was not RA but WRA.
The eariest RA headstamp I have is from 1945 on a .30 M1 Tracer.
On this moment I am confused about the land of origine of this Tracer Cartridge. It could be from Raufus as also from Remington .


Richard


#10

Richard-100% sure it is Remington Arms Co., USA


#11

Ron is absolutely right in this identification. The .30 carbine cartridges by Raufoss usually have the “RA” with periods as “R.A.” and they are usually at the bottom of the headstamp along with the date. When at the top, the letters are closer together than the way Remington used the same initials.


#12

Shown are the steel case “kam” headstamped round believed to be from Bakelittfabr. in Norway, along with a bullet I believe to be of the same type. Notice the line around the bullet, which is not a scar but is from the mould, and its relationship to the length of the part of the bullet protruding from the case. They are the same. The other round is the bras-cased blank with an odd four position crimp as described previously. The “dent” at the case mouth in about the center is not damage, but rather a purposeful crimp, one of four that are equidistant around the case mouth.

John Moss Collection


#13

First, Ron is correct that the RA 43 headstamp is Remington and not Raufoss. Though off topic, these are the known Raufoss headstamps in .30 carbine (or 7,62x33 as we used to call it):

Also, here are two .30 Carbine blanks corresponding to the two 9mm’s. They have shown up here in Norway, and I have always regarded them as Norwegian, though I have no evidence to support it.

To be honest, I do not have much to add or comment, simply because I don’t know much more about this. Lew’s suggestion that the thickness of the rim above the extractor groove on the plastic blanks could be a help to distinguish Bakelittfabrikken from Huck could be correct. All my Bakelittfabrikken plastic blanks have this thin rim.

There might have been some sort of contact or cooperation between Huck and Bakelittfabrikken. I was told so by a German collector many years ago. He referred to one Mr. Lie at Bakelittfabrikken in that connection. I asked emplyees at BF about this during a visit some years ago Nobody knew about Huck, but Mr. Lie was a name they knew about.

I think there are many suggestions here that are supported by nothing more than “attributed to Bakelittfabrikken” etc. I have mailed my BF contact and asked if there might be something to find in their archives about all this, so we’ll see what he/we can find out. Maybe he tells me to come and look for it myself ;-) But for the moment, I have no more information about this.

Lew, I’ll mail you copies of the patent papers as soon as I get the chance to scan them, possibly on Monday.

Morten


#14

Morten,
Many thanks for your thoughts. The information of a possible connection between Huck and Bakelittfabrikken is interesting since all we had before was supposition based on the appearance of the rounds. It would be nice if more information shows up but I am not optimistic.

John,
Thanks for the photo and info on the seperate kam bullet. What is the headstamp on the brass case load with the four crimps. I wonder if this is an intermediate stage between the hrn blanks and the BEAUX blanks?

This is based on a lot of speculation, but it is more logically consistent than what I had before.

Cheers,

Lew


#15

Lew - the headstamp on the brass one is “BEAUX Cal.9.” I explain more about the crimps in an answer a few answers about the picture that I had Joe post.


#16

I recently received copies of the Norwegian Ringdal patents and a pamplet on Huck production from 1951-1959 written by Werner Sunkel in 1980. Thanks to Morten and John. It is nice to see that the suppositions arrived at in this Forum seem to be supported by evidence, at least indirectly.

The Norwegian patents show a blank (not in 9x19) with the long plastic extension inside the case like the one pictured by John Moss. This is clearly a Ringdal patent cartridge. The patent drawing fo the 9x19mm plastic blank with a metal head shows a narrow rim below the plastic. Morten also siad that an individual, since departed, who knew a lot about these times at Bakelittfabrikken was a Mr Lie.

Given the information above, the Huck pamplet filled in some blanks. There was a drawing of a plastic bullet blank with the plastic extending far into the case, like the Ringdal patent in Norway. Although the document is in German which I don’t speak, it appears to say that beginning in the Summer of 1953, the firm Huck, in close cooperation with the Norwegians Ringdal and Lie from Bakelittfabrikken developed concepts for blank cartridges. That ties it up pretty well that the Huck/Bakelittfabrikken cooperation we speculated about above was real and the foundation of much of the Huck work on blanks. There are about 3 pages on this effort, and I will try to get a rough translation next week when I’m at the ECRA show. The relationship is particularly obvious since the early blanks (first 4 styles) used Raufoss powder.

This book also illustrates a brass case blank with a blunt red bullet and five different types with brass case and pointed plastic bullets. It also shows a 9x20mm plastic blank with a metal head and the blunt ogive which looks like the white (apparently Huck) blank in my photo above, and the metal head has illustrated a thicker rim below the plastic.

I will put all this info together and write an article for the Journal.

Many thanks to all who contributed.

Lew


#17

There was also in the Huck pamplet a brass case blank with a red wood bullet, but it was clearly not related to the Ringdal work.