Can any one tell me what this box should have held as it’s now empty.
Does Sonderanfertigung mean special model? OR ??
Any ideas of exactly what this “special model” is ?
What was it for?
There is a “14G14” lot number on the inside of the right end-flap and oddly enough to me, on the back side printed in/on the yellow band is “OILPROOF S.A. BALL”. Which is likely standard for this style box, but it seems odd to me.
Can any one tell me what this box should have held as it’s now empty.
I have the identical box. Since the normal (average) muzzle velocity
of Geco 9 mm FMJ ammunition is +/- 350 MPS, I would think that
this reduced-velocity load was intended for use with silenced pistols,
although I have no information exactly describing its intended use.
The cartridge has a GMCS FMJ bullet of normal German ogive, a brass case,
and a primer entirely lacquered a dark red color, more reminiscent of the red
color used on 1930s Geco & RWS 9 mm than the very bright, and lighter-red
lacquer we are used to seeing on post-WWII 9 mm from those makers.
Head stamp is: + GECO 41-65 (lot 41, manufactured in 1965). My box is the same
lot number as yours, and was acquired full, although I chose to live only five rounds
in the box. I have had it for many, many years.
EDITED TO ADD: The “+” sign I used in the headstamp is actually the standard NATO
mark, which I have never found out how to accurately reproduce here.
Hope this helps.
Sonderanfertigung für etc:
Special production for the Carl Walther plant, Ulm. The producer, I presume Geco, used Belgian Cooppal powder. I would think some experimental load as mr. Moss suggests.
Thank you gentlemen.
Is your translation “Special production” a ‘true’ translation or is Googles “Special Model”?
I have a US military generated technical terms dictionary & this exact word is not in it, and as I wish to be accurate I’m asking.
I freely admit to being really bad with all non-English perhaps because I have such a poor ear for it.
As far as my youngest daughter told me (she is a translator-interpreter German-English-Portugese) Sonderanfertigung isn’t a specific technical term related with ammunition. Sonder (special) Anfertigung (production, manufacture, making) is how she translated it for me. After some chit-chat about the abbreviations, we decided that Fa. could be well Fabrik (factory, plant) and Ngl. perhaps Nitroglycerin. P.P. ? No idea. Los 18? Makes me think to a lot number. The Germans are masters in composing words and of course in producing abbreviations. Let’s ask it to the Germans on this Forum. EOD?
The abreviation Fa. in this context means Firma in German which is to be translated as the Walther Company, by the way a company in my hometown. Sonderanfertigung i would translate as specifically manufacured for. So it would read like that this ammunition was specifically manufactured for the Walther Company.
Great stuff gentlemen, thank you one & all.
on the bottom line: Cooppal is the name of a Belgium gunpowder factory
The muzzle velocity indicate subsonic load. The bullet weight is?
THV - The bulet weight is not listed on the box. However,
I weighed a complete cartridge and the OAC weight was
187.3 grains (12.14 grams) weighed on a electronic digital
scale. Considering that the powder charge is likely somewhat
smaller in weight than normal, to lessen the velocity, that would
seem to indicate the standard German 8 Gram bullet to me.
I equivocate a little with “likely” and “would seem” because I am
not familiar with the characteristics of the Cooppal powder used
in the cartridges in question, and as we know, a specific charge
weight cannot, of itself, tell us the velocity. More information about
burning rate and other powder characteristics are needed to do
Certainly it is not in the range of 140-150 grains we normally associate
with loads meant specifically for use with silencers, although being
subsonic, that could, of course, have been the intended use. We would
probably need factory literature to have positive knowledge of the intended
I agree totally with John. I was given one of these boxes in 1971 or so by one of the individuals involved in the development of the MAC 10. I have no idea why he had the box. When he gave it to me he said it was a subsonic load for use with silencers.
John is correct that most subsonic cartridges are 140-160gr, but there are a number of 9x19mm subsonic that are 8gr bullets including the Israeli green tip with no headstamp. It all depends on how they are used.
But the load is! 0,255 gram is 3.935251392 (good god!) grains.
What is your problem with the load? To have a muzzle energy of roughly 65-70 percent of the standard load one would expect a propellant load reduced by roughly the same amount. Going from 0.36 g to 0.255 g does not look out of the ordinary to me.
By the way, regarding the bullet, if a non-standard bullet had been used, I believe it would have been indicated on the label like the non-standard velocity and propellant charge.
Lew - actually, when I typed the bullet weight spread, 150 grains, it was a
typo. I meant to type 160 grains. I was just aiming at a spread of the most
common bullet weights, but agree that the spread is even wider than what
I meant to type. It actually goes, for subsonic rounds, from about 124 grain to
170 grain. I am almost sure I have seen mention even of one with a 180 grain
bullet, but don’t remember who made it, etc.
When I deleted a major part of my answer due to getting to close to the prohibited
“Reloading” theme, I accidentally deleted most of the paragraph to you, Lew. Sorry
about that. It made the the first and only “showing” line address to you absolutely
nonsensical. I’m the one the owes the apology.
Peelen - I agree with you completely. It all depends on the powders
used and their burning rate and other properties that determine the
velocities and pressures generated by them.
Regarding edits of this thread. I decided on my own that comments
I made concerning loads probably do not belong here, and have deleted
a large portion of my original answer. Please disregard that answer if you
Sorry, typo on my part, probably because some of the British Subsonics go to 160gr and above.
Lew - not your fault at all. Re-read my answer above. I have
added an explanation of why! I first used as an example some
powder and bullet weights I reloaded with when I was pistol match
shooting. I did not name the powder, and put a note that if it was
too close to the prohibited reloading theme, it was fan to delete it.
Then, I decided to delete it myself, as I felt it probably did cross the line.
That’s when I screwed up and deleted most of the paragraph to you,
none of which had anything to do with reloads. I have restored that now
to the best of my memory about what I said.
Sorry about that. Your answer to that about bullet weights was spot on.
I have similar boxes that were loaded at request of Henk Visser. Also a v=280. The story is he used them to shoot in his collectable guns. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they were also intended for suppressed fire or some test work. He had created a compact pistol call the VASP. Visser Assault Pistol. The recoil of the 9x19 in burst mode was too big. So I guess he tried a reduced load in it. That was in the early 1970s.
When he passed away a lot of these boxes were still available and quite a few ended up with Dutch collectors. I got a cardboard Geco shipping box with a number of empty boxes a few years ago.
Very nice. I have not seen this box before. Thanks for posting.
I have two more Geco boxes with uncommon Labels.
First one is a box with 50 folded blanks made by DAG / Genschow Durlach in 1964
Second is a test load for a Cooppal pistol powder. Each round loaded with .35gr of a 2tons production. Made in 1960. I have no further Information, but I think it was made for GECO
Great boxes! Thanks everyone for sharing.