9mm Para Subcalibers-probably

M6 looked familiar to me and now I know why! I also agree on M1. I’m curious to know if M4 is in fact the same as your’s. Hopefully, I will get a front view and the dual firing pins are distinctive.

Note the added adapter (M10) to the posting of adapters above.

To make this thread more complete I had to add Fede’s thread on the Hartmann adapter cartridge.

iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=6777

Lew - think I asked before but no reply. Do you want adaptors of other claibers on this thread, or just 9mm (with possible dual caliber 7.65mm Para). I could scan what I have in .32, .380, Makarov, .45 and other calibers.

Am not looking for more work to do, so if not desired, don’t feel like it is something I will be disappointed at if I am not to do it. If wanted, I will be happy to do it though.

Would you want a posting of the Tri-Jen box? I think it is the only adaptor cartridge container I have other than that Swiss one. I have it in 9mm and I think in .45, although the .45 wouldn’t be so important as it is identical, basically to the 9mm box. Come to think of it, I have the labels for a lot of calibers in those brass ones that were made in California (Jett & Smith??). I would really only need to post one, since they came in plastic bags with a stapled label at the top and the claiber just hand-written on the label, as I recall. Haven’t look at any of them in years.

Unfortunately, if I do post my other adaptors, it will lead to many more answers and a much longer thread, I think (hope) as I have little or no solid information on hardly any of them.

In short, let me know how far you want to carry this thread. I know your interest is basically only the 9mm.

John,

Lets keep this to 9x19mm for now. There are many other adaptors out there in lots of calibers. I probably have 20 or so laying around in rifle calibers in a “covert collection”/accumulation. In fact, I may add some of those to a seperate thread here shortly.

The boxes would be great!!!

Note that I have modified the description on some of the items on the first post based on subsequent comments.

Lew

[color=red]NOTE: JOHN MOSS’S REPLY REFERENCED BELOW HAS BEEN REPOSTED AFTER THIS POST. IT WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THE WRONG THREAD.
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John’s reply contains three new adaptors which I haven’t seen previously (JM4, JM5 and JM6) as well as a South African adaptor which I had picked up a couple of years ago, but had not entered into my database. It also includes two of the British TARP (Training Ammunition Re-usable Plastic) cases made by RFD Systems Engineering Ltd in Godalming, Surry England. These use a special insert and a BB type projectile I believe (Tony or one of the other guys perhaps know more about these). In addition to the Brown and Black illustrated by John, they come in Gray and Yellow. As far as I know there is no “conversion kit” to accompany these cases.

John, thanks for the info!

NOTE: REPOSTED FOR JOHN MOSS

Pictured are some subcaliber cartridges that when I acquired them, I was told they were 9mm. I think all but one of them is obviously that caliber. They are numbered in a “JM” series to differentiate them from Lew’s cartridges, that just carry a numerical digit, and the ones he added, that have an “M” only in front of the number. They are pictured from left to right:

JM1. British plastic adaptor for a pellet. I am sure Curtis has these - I don’t know why they were not pictured other than they are not of the Lienhard type. Black color.

JM2. Same as JM1, except Brown color. They also exist, I believe, in a gray color, but I don’t have that one. would like to trade for a gray one, actually.

JM3. Solid Brass, with a fired brass primer. The bore through the cartridge is 0.1825" (4.63m/m). I don’t know what projectile was used.
It was reported to me to be of South African manufacture.

JM4. Unknown solid steel adaptor with a bore of 0.153" (3.90m/m). I do not know anything about the country, manufacturer or what kind of projectile it takes. However, the only cartridge I can find that will fit its base properly is a rosebud crimped .22 blank of the type shown to the right of it in the picture.

JM5. Shot, solid steel 4m/m Ubungspatrone caliber. Bore is 0.1665"(4.23m/m) and seems compatible with the diameter of the 4mm Ub. bullet which measured (very difficult to do) about .421m/m at the case mouth. An Ub. 4m/m cartridge is shown to the right of it.

JM6. A solid brass cartridge with a cavity in the base that will take only the blank shown to its right, or the rosebud types shown next to the long steel adaptor. I have no information on the manufacturer. It looks very much like the Jett and Smith, but it is shorter OAL and the bore and cartridge (?) recess in the base are totally different.
The bore is 0.187" (3.90m/m).

Here are the bases of the six adaptor cartridges, numbers JM1 thru JM 6.They are either self-explanatory or have been commented on in the captions that are with the pictures of the full cartridges in profile.

Collection of John Moss

REPOSTED FOR JOHN MOSS

Here is the packaging for the Convert-A-Pell cartridges made by Jett & Smith. Earlier in the thread, I alluded to this being a California firm. That was erroneous. They are made in Litchfield, Illinois. Our store stocked them and got them from a California Jobber, the source of my error in memory. The packages were the same for all the calibers they made. They were used in conjunction with a conversion kit.

Here is the box for the Tri-Jen rifled adaptors, pictured along with the adaptor cartridge, one of the lead balls (shot) that came in the box, and the primer knock out rod. Regular primers were used. Evidently, the first ones were not rifled, but otherwise looked the same. Also shown is the notice that was folded up in the box pertaining to the new rifling.

Collection of John Moss

Would rifling be much use with a round ball, or could it take conventional airgun slugs?

Falcon - I doubt if the Tri-Jens or any other of the rifled adaptor cartridges would win any prizes for pistol accuracy but, yes, it should work with a round ball. Why not? It worked in early muzzle-loading rifles with round balls. Yes, I know they were usually patched, but for other reasons to do with ease of loading, bore fouling, etc. Round balls went down the barrels of early Colt and Remington Revolvers, bare (not patch) with excellent accuracy.

Have never tried one of these things. Maybe I should. I have a few 9mm adaptors - the problem is the lead shot. Don’t want to use up the ones in my box and don’t want to buy a 25 Lb. bag of shot so I can shot a few in my basement!

I found an error in my submission of cartridges Lew did not previously show.
In the bore diameter of JM5, I have a figure of .421mm. Obviously, that should read “4.21mm” (Four point twenty-one mm). Sorry about that. My typing gets worse and worse.

Just roughed our an article for AutoMag asking questions about the 9x19 adaptor cartridges. You can look at it at:

gigconceptsinc.com/files/9x19mm_ … irdges.pdf

Just finished the article for NAPCA and ECRA looking for more info. It is at the URL above. Included the following photo which I thought may be of interest to some. It is interesting how the barrel and the adaptor cartridge interface. in the photo below I have illustrated the Convert-a-pell, the Lothar Walther .22 Short and the Lienhard.

Notice that the C-A-P uses a normal cartridge shape and the barrel is simply pushed into to sit on the tip of the adaptor cartridge. Looks to me that it would have to be reseated after each shot. There is nothing to lock it in place in the barrel and held only by rubber o-rings.

The Walther has a thin ring around the end of the barrel that engages the case mouth in the chamber and the adaptor cartridge then abutts this barrel with the tip passing in. Note the length form the chamber case mouth on the barrel to the head of the adaptor cartridge when it is seated is 19mm.

The Lienhard kit (or at least this one) has a screw-in end on the barrel that is essentially the shape of a 9x19 cartridge without the head. This is inserted in the chamber and the barrel is pushed in from the front and screwed into this chamber piece. The unusual little rimmed adaptor cartridge then fits in this chamber piece and provides a rim so that the chamber piece and the adaptor cartridge basically are the shape of a 9x19mm case. Lots of different approaches.

Lew,

Regarding your comments on the Convert-a-Pell barrel having nothing to hold it in place, it should have about four rubber “O” Rings arranged in two pairs - one jpair near the muzzle and one near the “throat” to hold it in place. This according to Jett & Smith literature and also my memory of when we sold these kits. The kits came with extras of the “O” Rings, in fact.

I don’t understand your measurement explanation of the Lothar Walther kit.
You mention that it is 19mm to the case mouth. The case mouth of the adaptor cartridge is at the very tip of the adaptor. I have one of these that appears to be the same as yours, and the case mouth is actually at 24.62m/m, the overall length of the adaptor. I would thing the determinate measurement for the intended case length should be from the head of the adaptor cartridge to the forward edge of the flange on the throat end of the steel barrel (the shoulder of the adaptor cartridge in your picture is resting on the rear edge of this flange). since that flange is probably what holds the barrel in the pistol, it must be taken into account in that measurement, I would think. Otherwise, the pistol would need a special breech block (slide, bolt - whatever depending on the pistol it was intended for) shorter than normnal to allow for the space taken up behind the normal barrel by the flange. It does appear in your picture that if one includes the width of the flange, the overall length from the head of the adaptor to its front edge would be about the same as the “case length” of the Lienhard adpator below it, including the part that screws on the barrel and the firing mechinicam inserted.

Please verify that length, because at the moment, I have the adaptor cartridge classified as a .380 due to the position of the shoulder itself, but it appears I am wrong based on the way these are used, if the flange is included in the “case length.”

John, My set has the o-rings on the barrel and extras in the kit. By “keep” I really meant “lock” like the Lienhard and Walther barrels are locked in place.

When I said “case mouth” I was referring to the part of the barrel that fits in the chamber case mouth in the previous sentence, not the casemouth of the adaptor cartridge.

I have edited the writeup.

Just picked up anohter adaptor cartridge. This one is a new product by a Russian firm, GV Research which “makes kits for shooting .17 BBs from real or deactivated firearms. These kits were designed for places where people have insufficient human rights and can not practice with guns at public ranges. The target market is Eastern Europe, Russia and China.”

The cartridge is powered by a shotshell primer. The case is a normal brass case (with the residue of a headstamp on it-looks like an RP to me) with a steel insert inside (but non-magnetic, stainless???). The barrel has a rim on the chamber end that seats into the casemouth area of the 9x19mm chamber and a rubber gromet that pushes down to hold the barrel in place.

Always something new in the cartridge world.

Lew - Wow, what a surprise. There is no question at all that the case used to make those was a form of R - P 9 mm LUGER. You would think that Russian cases would have cost them way less. In my PM to you of just a few minutes ago, I had not looked at the Forum yet, since you posted this, and in the email there was no picture of the base. I assumed it was a turned brass case originally made for these kits.

Interesting.

So are they selling that adapter as intended to be used in illegally owned firearms?

Falcon, you know as much as I do. I’m passing on what I was sent. I have no idea what the weapon rules are in the countries mentioned. Britain allows inactivated machine weapon that are totally illegal in the US, Germany allows semi-auto conversions of machine weapons that are illegal over here. I recently got a Turkish blank/short range that has a small green plastic plug in the tip that appearently can be used in modified guns for unrestricted ownership??? Who knows what the rules are on legal and illegal in Russia and other countries? Not me!

Here is a little more. The website is Russian, and shows language options for English, French, Spanish and Russian. The Spanish home page is in Spanish, but the French and Russian home pages are still in English. There is nothing but an email address on the website (inserts@km.ru) for contact info. The guy who corresponds uses the name Gray, but the PayPal goes to a Sergey Ivanov. I went back and checked the return address on the envelop I received and it is G.V. Research, in Farmingron Hills MI so this may be a US operation run by a Russian, or ???.

In addition to the adaptor shown, I received three “prototype/test pieces” that are of different design. What is interesting is that the “production” item shown in the thread looks like a steel insert, but is nonmagnetic-perhaps a stainless steel alloy or a tungsten alloy. One of the test items has a brass insert (with a .25" hole in the tip), and another has what looks like a two piece case with the “bullet” nonmagnetic, but the part of the insert that is about the middle of the case is strongly magnetic. The third has an insert that looks like it is steel is very weakly magnetic, so somebody was really trying out different insert materials. I also got a test piece in 7.62x39 with a steel insert that is stongly magnetic.

I just thought that the descritption implies that they intend for you to use the inserts to practise indoors with illegally owned firearms. These inserts would be illegal in the UK as they have a chamber and barrel, so would be classed as a firearm in themselves.

Everybody seems to have gun laws that make no sense on what is regulated and what isn’t.