9mm Parabellum box


#1

I have been trying to get an English translation of the ‘Lieferung unbekannt’ on the label of this 9mm Parabellum box, but have had no luck. The headstamp is a mix including S 2 18, S 4 18, S 8 18, S 9 18 and S 10 18. I assume the S represents Spandau.


#2

The literal translation is ‘Delivery unknown’, but in actuality its meaning translates to "a mixture of things from unknown or various sources."
Oh, and yes the “S” is for Spandau.

Joe

Edit: The “S” position is read at 6 o’clock.


#3

Joe, it will just mean “unknown lot” without a statement on various sources (here lots) as that usually was indicated as “verschiedene Lieferungen”.


#4

Thanks to both of you for the translation and explanation


#5

Alex, just posting my notes as a Dutch collector explained to me. You would definitely know better, but please explain a bit as the word Lieferung means supply, correct? Unbekannt is easy as it is simply nothing other than unknown. When you combine the two words how does it become “unknown lot” when the German word for lot numbers is Chargennummern, wrong? German is not as easy to translate to English as one would think.

Joe


#6

Joe, no worries. Every language has it’s own specialties and in particular the military terminology which is often missunderstood by natives.

“Lieferung” (straight translation is “delivery”) is “lot” while there is also “Rate” (and “Charge”) what in the German military (back then) was the sub-lot.
So to translate “Lieferung” as “delivery” is the typical translation error as here we would need an “interpretation” instead.
This is the definition of the German military at that time and should not be mixed with “civilian” language even of the time (before 1945) as the same applies to Bundeswehr terminology of today.


#7

So the mix of production months in the headstamps would be the reason for the ‘unknown lot’ labeling? Would this box have been intended for military or police use?


#8

Lieferung Unbekannt , in German Ordnance Speak, means “Contents of Box from Unknown Lots” and may mean that the Package ( a repack) contains Mixed Headstamps or Cartridges of the same Headstamp, but of differing Production Lots or even Years, whilst from the same Manufacturer.
Repacking was usually the result of “clearing up” Broken Packets, Loose ammo collected from Units, Battlefield Pick-ups (salvage), packets which had lost their Labels or were damaged, etc.

BY the way, “Lot” in German is “Los”, usually abbrev. to “L.” ( as seen on packet Labels).

The Lot Number on the Cartridge Headstamp refers to the Lot of the ( empty) cartridge case Production…the Production (filling) Lot is usually different. ( Look at a Label to see the Difference.)

The Filling Lot ( which is important for Identifying when the Cartridge was actually filled, i.e., to Identify filling Problems or errors) is Part of the Label of the Packet…but if this is Lost, then the Cartridges become “Lfg Unbek”.

Usage: Such re-pack ammo was restricted to Training Use only, as its reliability was suspect. Of course, in Wartime, any ammo was better than none.

Doc AV


#9

Here is a Picture of a 9mm repack from the Luft-Munitionsanstalt Breitengüßbach.

Rgds
Dutch


#10

Guy, mixed “production months” were not indicated anyways as the Germans used only the number of the lot and not the month indicator. Otherwise it would have been impossible to ID the several hundered lots per year some factories were making.

To answer the question above: So if these mixed lots were packed then they were labeled as “verschiedene Lieferungen” (various lots). The “unknown lot” goes for cartridges where the data on the loading lot (see DocAV’s posting) was lost which still can be one lot but still unknown then.


#11

Sometime back we looked at this subject and the Forum excelled answering a lot of questions surrounding this type of label.

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13732&hilit=German+Repack

Also some similar markings in this thread:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13741&p=97300&hilit=+German+Repack#p97300

Your box is a new one to add! Many thanks for posting it,

Cheers,
Lew


#12

I’m trying to determine what the ‘provisorisch bezettelt’ means at the top of the label shown below. An internet translation yielded ‘temporarily occupied counts’; can someone provide a meaningful translation? Thanks.

[


#13

Excellent Box!!! I understand the caption on top means Provisional Label, apparently because they were out of the blue & dark blue paper. I have only seen this type label on some lots of DWM Berlin (asb & rfo) 1944 and 1945 boxes. Labels in close lot numbers are typical blue and dark blue.

Your box is slightly different from the four I have. Mine are:

Load Lot: 1944 asb 5 Case lot: 1944 asb 25 (yours is lot 26, interesting how they change case lot numbers in the middle of a load lot, and capture that on the label. Incredible data collection system)

Load Lot: 1944 asb 7 Case lot: 1944 asb 26

Load Lot: 1945 rfo 5 Case lot: 1945 rfo 2

Load Lot: OJ rfo 7 Case lot: 1945 rfo 3

The OJ on the last box is a code for 1945 that was introduced on DWM Berlin ammo right at the end of production. On this box, it was only used on the box but but was introduced on the cartridge case in the middle of lot 4 which occurs most commonly with headstamp rfo - St+ 4 45 but also rfo - St+ 4 OJ.

Again, great box labels, and it looks like you found a number of them! Well done…

Cheers,
Lew


#14

Thanks for your usual thorough explanation, Lew. I do have a few of this particular box.


#15

A most interesting label indeed.
“Provisional labelling” is a translation right on the spot. Zettel (piece of paper) in this context means label and “bezettelt” is labelled.


#16

This kind of label is also known from 7,9 Mauser rounds.
We think they were out of blue paint for the stripe on the box label to indicate the rounds were made with steel cases.

Rgds
Dutch


#17

[quote=“EOD”]Joe, no worries. Every language has it’s own specialties and in particular the military terminology which is often missunderstood by natives.

“Lieferung” (straight translation is “delivery”) is “lot” while there is also “Rate” (and “Charge”) what in the German military (back then) was the sub-lot.
So to translate “Lieferung” as “delivery” is the typical translation error as here we would need an “interpretation” instead.
This is the definition of the German military at that time and should not be mixed with “civilian” language even of the time (before 1945) as the same applies to Bundeswehr terminology of today.[/quote]

Alex, thanks for the explanation. As you know, I am still looking to get Kapell’s latest 7,93X33 book translated and all the German- English translators I have found, look at it and say the wording does not make sense. Of course they do not understand one word of military jargon either, so they are trying to translate is like a menu at a restaurant. I thought more about buying a scanner and then using online translation, but that would be no better. So I now fully understand the translation differences.

Joe


#18

I know of no language on earth that can be adequately translated with dictionary renditions of each and every word. Technical and Military language are especially difficult in this regard. Every language has its own peculiar idomatic use of words and phrases. In Spanish is the phrase "No hay de que."
Word for word translation to English: “There is not of that.” Proper translation to English: “You’re welcome.”

This is why I ask people from whom I seek translations to not attempt to translate each word for me, but rather read what I would like translated, put the text down, and then tell me in their own words in English what it meant to them. When I ask that, and they follow it, the quality of translations improves considerably, especially if the person translating has some familiarity with the subject matter.