9mm Round


#1

Picked up a box of 9mm rounds. The headstamp is “MM” (not “M M”) “6 41”

I poked around and saw some reference that these were made for some clandestine activities, that the date is bogus and that maybe or maybe not the place of manufacturing was Canada. Box is unmarked.

I am sorta curious as to what these critters are. Thoughts?



#2

These were covered in detail in a previous thread, including various opinions. I am never successful in searching anything on this Forum, so perhaps someone more skilled than I, which probably includes most of the people on this Forum, can post a link to the previous discussions.

Incitatus - you have already provided the short answer to your own question. I will add here only that they were made in Canada.


#3

Short answer, Made by Dominion in Canada for the CIA from as early as possibly the late 1940s or early 1950s, and could have been produced as late as the 1960s. The date is false. Same hst occurs on 7.92M. Both were originally made to go with ex-German WWII weapons the CIA was sending to governments all over the world. The cover story that this was made in Canada for China to go with the Browning pistols is totally false.

As John said, there are a number of long discussions on this in previous threads.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9828&hilit=clandestine+9mm+cia
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7825&hilit=clandestine+9mm+cia
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19&hilit=clandestine+9mm+cia

These should give a good start to your reading.


#5

I will add to Lew’s answer since we don’t precisely agree on dating of these rounds. He feels that they may have been made within the span of just a few years, meaning more than one “date” in an actual calender year.

The sequence of magnetic bullets, and the black primer seal, when viewed against non-clandestine Canadian 9 mm rounds of various dates, makes me believe that they were made over the course of the same number of years that appear on these clandestine headstamps (six years - 40,41,42,43,44 and 45) and that if you simply substitute a “5” for the “4” in the headstamp dates, it probably will tell you the actual years of manufacture.

I hasten to add that without more documentation than has ever been found regarding these rounds, both Lew’s opinion and mine are conjecture, although in both cases, based on some knowledge of Canadian 9 mm rounds and other factors involved. One theory, at this point, is as good as the other, either way.


#6

Actually John, I understand that they were made from 1948 or 49 until about 1965. One or more of the early “dates” may have been for a single year, but the 1945 apparently was made for many years. I have that information from a guy in an organization who had some insight. The intent of my note was to indicate this. Sorry for being unclear…

Cheers,
Lew


#7

Is the information from your friend Anecdotal, or backed up with documentation? Just wondered, because I have had information in the past, especially when I was still working and in contact with factory reps, executives and other employees (at NSGA and then SHOT Shows) that turned out to be completely wrong. Military information about foreign ammunition is often wrong, or very incomplete.

Without documentation other than anecdotal, it is still conjecture unfortunately, and that includes my own opinion of when they were made.

Well, I don’t mean to start this whole discussion again, as we have been through the whole subject on the Forum so many times before. I doubt we will ever have a postively documented answer ever.


#8

I have read the relevant threads (thank you!). It seems to me that there is very little that we actually know about these rounds. Is there any objective evidence that supports the identification of the manufacturer of these rounds as Dominion?

Curious mystery.


#9

I just notice one thing. The headstamp was misinterpreted at the opening of this thread. It is NOT “MM 6 41” but rather “9 MM 41” with dates from “40” through “41” known. This is an easy mistake to make if one has only encountered specimens of a single headstamp date. When one sees them all, it becomes obvious that the “6” is actually a “9” and is part of the caliber markings, as not every year would be known only from the 6th Month or Lot Number 6, depending on one’s original interpretation of the headstamp.

Regarding documentation of who made this round, I actually don’t know of any off hand. However, there is simply no argument among cartridge specialists, either in the United States, Canada, or other countries, about the origin of this round. Unlike questions of when and for whom cartridges are actually made, which cannot be known for certain without documentation, specimens of the ammunition itself and its packaging provide solid clues to manufacture. In this case, the boxes it originally came in are all unmarked, but they are the typcial Canadian 64-round packaging for this caliber. Since there was only one Canadian manufacturer of 9 mm Para (Luger) ammunition, and since the characteristics of the cartridges are Canadian, it leaves no doubt who made it.

Regarding the dates, these were found to be spurious when evidence was presented that the first pilot lot of 9 mm Para ammunition ever made in Canada was produced in 1942, with the headstamp “DC 42.” There is other evidence backing up the claim that the ammunition was not made during the years represented on the headstamp. Which years it was made is the subject of argument because to date, there has been nothing but theory and anecdotal evidence, if that is any evidence at all, concerning when they were actually made.

There is no sense me recounting the arguments over dating, as they have all be covered before on this forum, on lengthy threads, as you have seen already.


#10

John, Since the rounds were made for the Agency, there is no documentation that I know of. The information that I know if comes from very good sources. I am convinced the story is true in general. As I mentioned some is speculative. I’m told production began for a very specific purpose, to supply the Caribbean Legion as I think I mentioned in previous posts.

The rounds were made with 40-45 dates, not 40-41. The 40 & 41 rounds were made before Dominion produced any 9mmP ammo. Prior to WWII they sold Kynoch 9mmP. The 40-41 ammo matched the characteristics of Dominion 45 production. the late rounds matched the characteristics of the 1955 Dominion military production. This from recall so can’t give you the year of he change

Cheers,
Lew