9mmK probably Hungarian-probably Clandestine


#1

I recently found a partial box of the round below. The 25 round box was white and totally unmarked. The plastic tray (with posts) was translucent dark gray and consistent with MFS boxes. The headstamp style and primer seal color also look Hungarian, at least to me.

Does anyone know more about this round???

Cheers,
Lew

Hungarian%20380-9mm%20hst


#2

Lew, a very interesting round.

Here a comparison of MFS and S&B with your round.
I applied to all of them the resolution of your image so the baseline for perception is more equal.
The font is not consistent with the MFS stamped case but the rounded bevel seems to fit as well as the primer size.
S&B though seems to get very close in the PA (take into account different lightning when images were taken).


Left to right:

  • 9x17 MFS Hungary
  • 9x17 unidentified
  • 9x18 S&B

#3

EOD,
I could be wrong about the identity of this round, The headstamp styles used by MFS have varied a good deal over time as the photo below shows. The MxF headstamp characters look very close to the 9mmK above to me, and the color on the P * 9mm * headstamp has a very similar primer seal.

My second guess would be Austrian.

image

In addition, the tray looks very much like the tray used in the “Fake Geco” 9x19mms discussed hear some time back, but just slightly darker. Perhaps this was in the ECRA Bulletin.

image

Still, the identification of this 9mmK as Hungarian is just speculation on my part.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Lew, sure I do not have the answer to this round.
Hungary though was not the most prominent to cover the whole primer with laquer while S&B did often.

But your image above is bringing us from the 100th to the 1000th:
The “AA” font is sticking out from all Hungarian ones. Is the origin confirmed?
And what about the “MKE” one? Did I miss them being made by MFS? So far I remember only Igman and S&B for these + maybe genuine Turkish production.
Could you enlighten me on these?


#5

EOD, All of these were confirmed to be Hungarian by the Director of the Hungarian Proof House. I sent him this image in 2009 as my headstamps that I suspected to be by MFS, and he confirmed them all. I have no confirmation that he was correct in his identifications.

I had seperate confirmation on the MKE headstamp. I believe that MFS was one of the bidders to supply bullets and cases to MKE in a competition held some years ago.

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Lew, is there any info as for whom the “AA” was made or what it means?

The MKE PA looks very distinctive and I think I saw it before but can not remember where.


#7

I have no idea who the AA was made for. I only have the case and bullet with no primer. It is only documented in 1999 and was made with both RN and Truncated bullets as far as I know.

Cheers,
Lew

Sorry, I found my note on these rounds. They were marketted by Anglo American Small Arms Ltd in London and by Anglo American Inc in Alexandria VA.


#8

Lew, I wish we had a comment from John Moss.
I assume his PC problems are not solved yet?


#9

I spoke to John yesterday and we discussed this round along with lots of other stuff. He has this round in his collection and agrees that it is Hungarian, and said it was given to him some years ago as Hungarian.

No progress on his computer problems yet.

On the AA headstamped rounds, I suspect that Anglo American are subsets of Interarms given the addresses. I have never heard of them except for this headstamp. I would not be shocked to learn that this was actually a military contract load for someone, based on the military format headstamp, and that Interarms bought rejected rounds or production overrun or some/all of the production that was available cheap, then created two shell companies with names to match the headstamp. If these rounds were intended as commercial in the first place, why date the headstamp???

Just speculation,

Cheers,
Lew


#10

Lew, good you talked to John.
And also good to have one more source saying it is Hungarian.
Did you ever see the box for this round?

AA:
I understand it is still referred to as Hungarian?
Just a thought and maybe weird too but if it is export it could also have been for the Russian company A+A which - coincidence or not - also was founded in 1999 (also we know from Russia that commercial hs were often dated). Maybe a failed contract where cases never were delivered? We know such incidents from other factories too.
Here the A+A site:
http://tulataman.ru/
As said, just a thought then.


#11

The 25rd box is white and entirely unmarked. The “post” type tray is almost identical to the tray in the fake Geco rounds discussed before that are also from Hungary.

The AA rounds were made by MFS. They have the same pretty destinctive characteristics.

Lew


#12

Anglo American Small Arms Ltd, Kingway House, 103 Kingsway, London WC2B 6AW (US Branch: Anglo American, Inc., 1033 North Fairfax Street, Alexandria, VA 22314) published a beautiful catalog in 1999, with .22 Rimfire, Auto Pistol of most major calibers, but including .224 BOZ. 9 x 22 Major (perhaps showing a tie to Hungary), one revolver cartridge, the .38 Special, Sporting rifle cartridges including US, British, German and Russian calibers, along with gun and ammunition steel safes (security cabinets).

Despite this, I have no clue how long they were in business, and have never seen their AA headstamp, to my recollection, on anything but NUPE cases in 9mm Para. I thought I had one in my collection, but a search awhile ago failed to find it.

It would be interesting to know if any of our Forum people know of the AA or any other headstamp from Anglo American in any other calibers, loaded ammo or empty cases.

John Moss