9mmP & a few 9mmM headstamps from ECRA


#1

Below are some headstamps that turned up at the ECRA meeting. the fired ones came from a range in Prague! The two Russian headstamps (Takho and cyrillic) are on their way to John Moss, but too nice to not show.

I can’t identify three of the headstamps:

XF 9P 17 is entirely new to me. I have never heard of it. It is on an ARES reload! Who is XF???

NTW 9mm LUGER looks like a US headstamp to me but I have never heard of it. Does anyone know who NTW is???

9mm LUGER is one I have seen before, both with these letters and with thinner letters more like the S&B loads. Does anyone know who made this one???

Some ot the other headstamps are new to me but I recognize the codes.

I had a great meeting including two different boxes for the P24 cartridges that i have written about before. Had a good time with a lot of old friends, and made some new friends.

Worth the trip!

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Could the “Scorpion” and the “XF” be made by “ZVS” of Slovakia?

Any info on the “Scorpion” headstamp?


#3

Hi Lew, nice finds!

“XF” is the headstamp of the new “X-Force” brand by Sumbro of Macedonia.

There is also an earlier box with a very poor design that is only marked “X-Force Ammunition” (could be samples). Same contents.

Regards,

Fede


#4

“NTW” was made for Northwest s.r.l in Italy.


#5

Possibly “NTW” is:

[quote=“Pivi, post:4, topic:10765, full:true”]
I have the MFS 40 S&W + P too

These are some italian proprietary headstamps in my collection:

NTW 40 S&W

CHEDDITE 40 S&W

CHEDDITE 40 S&W ( N T W around the base)

NTW stands for “North West”, an italian company that sells reloading components and loaded ammo. I don’t know who made NTW and CHEDDITE cases, but I suspect Fiocchi or nny since another italian company, LCM, acquires proprietary headstamped cases from these sources.

Mmmmhhh I miss the LCM 40 S&W samples in my collection, now I will have to look around for them
[/quote] (45 Colt and 40 S&W collectors?)

Brian


#6

Fede, great info on the “XF”!

Aynthing you can say about the “Scorpion” maybe?
And the “FC” is US?


#7

I intended to ask about the Scorpion 9mm LUGER headstamp also!!! I recall something on it, but can’t remember where I saw it. There is a Scorpion ammo in Arizona bit they are reloaders and this round showed up in the Czech Republic. Thee is a pistol made there, the CZ Scorpion EVO 3 S1 Pistol, but the company website does not indicate they also make ammunition! I still suspect this ammo may be associated with the gun in some way!

Fede and BD, Many thanks for the identification. Much appreciated!!! I should have remembered the NTW headstamp!

Cheers,
Lew.


#8

I have the NTW headstamp on a couple of variations
of 9 x 21, both fired cases.

John M.


#9

Lew is the one in the upper right FC or FO?


#10

It is definately FC. At first I thought it was a Federal contract for the police somewhere, but looking at the style of the letters, I am not sure it is Federal. Do you have any ideas???

Cheers,
Lew


#11

Lew - The FC round is reminiscent in headstamp style
of those few “FC” dated empty cases I found on our range
years ago. They had a two position headstamp, though,omitting
the caliber. You got one of those from me. Have never seen any
others, oddly. “FC” could also stand for Fábrica de Cartuchos, and
was used for such by México on .45 Auto rounds I have from 1971 and 1977.
I think “FC” was also used on some 7.62 x 51 rounds, and perhaps
other calibers as well, by México. I always felt those “FC” 9 mm cases
might have been from there, primarily because they never showed up,
at least around here, again.

I guess it is an illusion, but until you identified that headstamp as “FC”, on
my screen, it looked like “FO” even using a very good magnifying glass.

John M.


#12

I agree that the “FC” looks like an “FO” but when you look close it isn’t. Photos below will help.

Does anyone have an idea who made these???

Cheers,
Lew

image image


#13

Lew,

Great photos. Definitely “FC”. Thanks for the clarification.

When I get time, I am going to look very closely at my “FC” Federal headstamps
and my “FC” Mexican headstamps, with close attention to the shape of the C and
the “9s”. Also the oddball two-place headstamp I mentioned above, which from its
apparent scarcity, could be Mexican. Don’t know if it will tell us a thing, but worth
a try.

John M.


#14

Im going to throw Aguila in as a possibility since I have an Aguila factory cartridge board which confusingly has a 7.62 Nato case with a dated FC headstamp that is similar to what Lew shows. The date is 88, but getting a photo will be difficult as it is glued to the board. Might well not be related but maybe it will ring a bell as to a connection for some European contract if Aguila does anything like that?


#15

No proof here at all…but Scorpion one…ZVS has a line called Scorpio (which has scorpio on box etc)…and font is pretty close to the Scorpion headstamp…Just a possibility. Emailed ZVS and CZ Czech to inquire. If I get a response I will update the post.
zvs%20logoscorpion


#16

John, the issue I see with the “FC 12 9 x 19” as possibly being a Mexican contract headstamp is the way the date is depicted, because a distinct characteristic of the Mexican “FC” is that the year is readed in the same direction as the caliber designation, not the manufacturer. You can observe this in every single “FC” headstamp from 1966 until 2011, contract or locally manufactured, and in any caliber (5.56x45, 7.62x51, 9x19, 20x139, .30 Car., .30-06, .38 Spl., .45 Auto, .308 Win., and .380 Auto). However, I don’t know about later headstamps, so there is a possibility that this has changed.

@cartridgecorner
Curtis, the “Scorpio” brand is owned by the STV Group in Czech Republic.

In Germany, the “Scorpion” trademark for ammunition belongs to CZ since 2015, but I have never seen any 9x19 ammunition marketed by them.

Regards,

Fede


#17

That is definitely a factor, and a condition of Mexican-bound
or originated headstamps, Fede. Most all, in fact, are read on
the same orientation of the cartridge - that is, you need not rotate the cartridge to
read all of the headstamp. You can read all the elements of
the headstamp facing in the same direction as the factory
designator.

However, although the date is still read with the same orientation
as the caliber, I have one .45 ACP cartridge, “F C 74 0.45” where
you must rotate the cartridge to read the headstanp, since you you
hold it with the manufacturer’s designation, “F C”, at the top, the
date and caliber are upside down. This is, as far as a quick check
of my 9 mm Para and .45 ACPs from Mexico are concerned, the only
pistol round with a headstamp with that element orientation, although
in my dupes, I do have a 7.62 NATO blank (Grenade Propulsion cartridge?)
with the same orientation as the FC 74 0.45 round. It is from the same year
as the .45 “F C 7.62 N 74.”

I have pretty much learned to “never say never.” This is NOT a confirmation
that I believe the round in question is for Mexico. It is just a statement that
I would not automatically dismiss it as such based only the orientation of the
caliber and the date in relation to he manufacturer’s mark.

I still have not had time to examine bullet ogives, headstamp font, etc. of
the round in question to other rounds of any country to try to draw a
comparison. One problem is I have very few dated, military Mexican pistol
cartridges from later than the 1970s, if any at all.

Thanks, though, for reminding me of that feature of Mexican rounds. Truthfully,
while I observed that some time ago when I was actively picking up rounds from
that country, I had forgotten it.

The ZVS headstamp you show is interesting. I don’t think I have seen that
version with the initials on a straight plane, more in “Trademark” form. I
think I have two or three variations of them with the ZVS just printed as
separate initials.

Edited to include differently oriented 7.62 NATO blank headstamp.

John Moss

.


#18

Fede
Correct on the ZVS and CV companies. I am only pursuing both companies as leads and have calls and emails in to them. Perhaps CZ had some ammo made for them…no idea but a possibility though doubtful.


#19

I also have not seen the use of “Scorpion” on ammunition in Germany. But if CZ wants to keep the rights to this trademark, it sooner or later will have to make use of that name. Otherwise, under German law, CZ will lose its rights to it.
For example, we have two petrol stations in entire Germany still selling “Gasolin” brand just for the purpose of keeping this old name in use by its owner.


#20

I have sorted through the cases from the firing range in Prague. There are 16 different S&B headstamp styles in this stuff. I suspect the different headstamps represent different contracts.

The SAB cases on the top row are for Austria. The cases with “P.P.” and “P.S.” are for Italian Police. The “BM” indicates a load for the Hungarian Police.

Can anyone identify who the others are for???

The following were also in this batch of cases. Some like the FNB case are clearly S&B made. Note the different size of the characters on the two MMS headstamps.

Cheers,
Lew