Can anyone tell me who made this, and when?
Projectile is gmcs.
Can anyone tell me who made this, and when?
Projectile is gmcs.
It is a Czech-made round, probably by Sellier & Bellot. It is confusing because there is a very similar Austrian headstamp in some calibers. I think it is pre-WWII, but have never really been able to date it positively. Lew Curtis probably knows.
White & Munhall identifies this as a Czech headstamp by S&B, but implies it was during German occupation. There is a Czech box that illustrates this headstamp.
The label is in German so would probably confirm that it is wartime production. The colors of the label are consistent with post war S&B labels, but this particular box was found filled with “Z” headstamp ammo from 1947 and 1948. Other S&B style boxes have also been found with “Z” headstamp ammo so there is probably a story here. During the late 1940s Czechoslovakia was very active exporting 9mm ammunition.
Bottom line, definately Czech, very probably S&B under German occupation but maybe not.
The box shows a 6 point actual star headstamp, the top photo shows the three asterisks as opposed to actual stars. I have a 7.63mm with the asterisks made by Hirtenberger. I know they also make 5 and 6 point stars as well. But the box headstamp picture is definitely different than the top photo. Would you possibly have a cartridge from that box to confirm it is the headstamp with the asterisks as well? That would help for sure.
I would not make too much out of box art compared to the actual headstamp on the cartridge.
The artist’s conception may differ in slight details from the bunter maker’s work. The basic content of the box label drawing is the same as the actual headstamp. Only minor details differ.
In my previous post, I mentioned this box was filled with “Z” headstamped cartridges dated 1947 and 1948. That is not correct. I misread my notes. I obtained this box empty. I have two other boxes with this headstamp. Note that one (bottom of two below) is simply the earlier box with a red overlabel covering the German markings and marked “Made in Czechoslovakia” which, with that mark is very likely intended for export to the US. The other box may actually be pre-WWII and this one shows the headstamp as asterisks. I agree with John that you are perhaps trying to draw too fine a distinction from box label drawings. This box has a sticker on the side indicating it was made in Czechoslovakia so was also likely intended for the US market. I think both of these boxes were simply a case of packing ammo in left over boxes from WWII.
There is a box almost identical to the top box illustrated in this post, but the headstamp illustrated is “SB/ * / P / * /” (note the P is backwards-another box drawing error). This indicates to me that these are all S&B boxes. I think the box immediately below likely preceeded the top box with the *** 9m/m headstamp but it is possible both could be post-WWII production.
Cartridgecorner, you know of course that the 7.63mm with the asterisks in this style is specifically identified by White and Munhall as being Czech. I am a bit dubious about the identification of this cartridge as Hirtenberger. Could you share with us your evidence for this identification?
One other bit of information. The box label below contained the “SBP 9mm LUGER” headstamped cartridge with the nickel plated case. The colors are close to the other boxes illustrated.
Sorry Lew was not trying to confuse the topic. The 7.63mm I have that is Hirtenberber is not the same…similar but not the same. There is only a number and not the mm. I was merely trying to point out the stars being different, as three main types of stars were used in that era and often by the same manufacturers so the star shape is very important. As you know the asterisks, 5 point and 6 point stars were used and often by the same factories or by competitors. Hungary, Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia in particular marked with various stars so this makes identifcation confusing at best, especially for the novice collectors. I agree this one is SB and I love the new boxes you posted.
Cartridgecorner, I understand and agree. I’d like to see the Hirtenberger 7.63mm headstamp you mentioned. John and I have gone round and round trying ot fugure out what the various “Star” headstamps mean.
My specimen of this cartridge (that is, the one shown at the beginning of the thread) has a CNCS jacket, while the pictured one appears copper-colored. Is this a significant point? Jack
Jack, I have this load with both GM and CN bullets, both magnetic. I don’t think the bullet is significant. I don’t think the bullet style is significant, but who knows?
As usual, I am humbled by the amount of knowledge out there among you guys. Thanks for to all for the great information!!!
Lew: Thanks for the comments re bullet finish. My specimen of this cartridge is a bit of a mystery to me as I can’t remember ever seeing it before last week among my “non-military” 9m/m Lugers. Perhaps it crept in while I wasn’t looking! Jack
Jack, I dug out and weighed both rounds and they are both 191gr oaw which indicates both are 124gr bullets so the only difference appears to be the bullet jacket. I suspect the CN jacket would be the earlier load and the GM jacket the later load since the German standard was GMCS jackets, while the Czech standard was basically a CNCS bullet. The P14A loads from 1940 in my collection are all CNCS jackets, and the early 1941 ak loads by S&B were CNCS bullets. Later in 1941 and early 1942 ak loads used both CNCS and GMCS bullets. The “*** 9m/m” loads would then be ca’ 41 to '42 with using both types of bullets, or the CNCS bullet loads could go back to 1940 or earlier.
Lew: Thanks for the interesting comments on dating. This sort of ties in with something I learned in doing genealogy, i.e., that any clue is better than no clue at all. Jack
I have a 9mm box (empty) identical to Lew’s first picture, and there is no printed indication, front, back, sides or ends, of its source. So now I know. I remember that I bought it as a partial box from a local gun shop back in the late 1950’s and later shot those rounds up, so I don’t know what the headstamp was. For some unknown reason, I kept the empty box (I have many empty boxes packed away).
I have attached some photos of original box 9 mm Luger for Mexico from my collection.
Photo of bottom of box included more specifications about this cartridge.
DennisK, I saw one of these boxes at the SLICS this week. it was full of “Z” headstamp loads. When I looked closely, there was still a bit of the red overlabel on the end flap. There must have been a lot of these that came into the country.
SIG, Thanks for the photo. I didn’t know these were a contract for Mexico, but not the nickel plating makes sense.
Now if someone would only come up with a full box of the *** 9m/m headstamped loads!!!
Lew - sorry you didn’t know the nickeled-case S&B rounds were for Mexico. I knew it. I got mine from Manfred
Buetter at his house in Germany in 1972. He took it out of his collection for me because he was not at that time keen
on foreign 9mm, and I went ape when I saw it.
Regarding the “full box” of * * * 9m/m. I only have one round left in my box but I got it probably 40 years or more ago at the gun shop in the basement of Roos Brothers at the corner of 4th and Market Street, San Francisco, right up the block from the Original S. F. Gun Exchange (redevelopment forced us to move down to second street). The price sticker from Roos is still on it - a whopping 4.95 (and I mean that. Very expensive at that time. We were selling boxer-primed, non-corrosive Canadian ammo only a little later than that for about 2.75 a box of 65 rounds). The box is identical to the bottom picture in one of the answers on this thread with the red strip, a picture of the cartridge including headstamp, and “Made in Czechoslovakia” in English, along with “PARABELLUM 9” in the red stripe.
It was one of the first foreign boxes I got. The boxes are such poor quality cardboard (little more than paper) that they were in poor shape on the shelf. I thought they were knew, but obviously, the were old surplus from something and somewhere at the time Roos Brothers had them. As I recall, one reason I don’t keep full boxes much was a result of this box. I recall, now that I am holding the box, that I dropped it (full) andreally damaged it. I wasn’t real serious about boxes then anyway. I kept it only because it was interesting. I really had purchased it, and any box I had in those days, just to get the cartridge in it. I had lots of 9mm Pistols in my collection in those days to shoot up any excess - far more than the two shooters I have now in that caliber.
I didn’t think there was any question about what box that stuff came in! (Unless I can find one in my dupes which I haven’t so far, although I haven’t search all of them, I promised even this last box specimen to someone who needs it.
I don’t care since it is in my collection as well, and the box label shows the headstamp, so I will always know exactly what came in it.