9mmP-SIB or Arcane or what

O,K. - a little research with the right person and I have received this information about Rhino Replacement Parts.

They started making ammunition c.1986. They market some weird loads in shotgun, one called “Dragon’s Breath.” It is so ridiculous I won’t even quote the description on this Forum. They made other shotgun shells, including flechette rounds.

For Lew, one telling bit of information: The made “…in centerfire ammunition Arcane AP…” Their line offered centerfire metallic ammunition in calibers .380 ACP, 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP, .223, 7.62 x 39mm. .308 and .30-06.

Now, the bullet weight of Lew’s round is still “iffy” for me to be a U.S. load. However, hopefully, someone can come up with some sort of Rhino specs sheet that will list the bullet weights they offered 9mm in. If they offered one of the same or similar weight in the “Arcane”-shaped bullet, then I think we have an answer on that.

Rhino ceased operations at the end of 1990.

Reference: Rhino Replacement Parts Seneca South Carolina (US-2132) Forensic Ammunition Service.

I love historic info like that! Great research John. I remember that Dragon’s Breath shotgun round and like you, won’t mention the crazy bs purpose of it.

These Rhino pointed rounds really are neat.

Jason

I use to buy a few of the Dragon Breath rounds each year and take to the ECRA meetings. Always interesting to people!!! Just shows us collectors are like!!!

Hahaha, I’ll mention the often given description for the infamous “Dragon’s breath” 12ga shell. It’s still offered by the likes of Hi-Vel, Firequest, and Ammotogo (Bigdogammo). Off-topic I know, but the original description goes something like:

A-hem…

“Engulf your target in a withering storm of incendiary hellflame as you douse an area the size of a football field with a 200’ long cone of destruction down on anyone unlucky enough to find themselves in this mix of 3-zillion degree pyrophoric mischmetal from hell!”

It’s very ExtremeShock-esque in terms of advertising verbage. Of course the real projectile is just a mischmetal tracer slug which trails sparks, and spews off some magnesium or something as it flies through the air and disintegrates. More like 100’ and maybe 30’ wide anyway. BTW - Florida, Iowa, Illinois, California all ban the sale and purchase of these shells, and in New Jersey they are legal to purchase and own, but illegal to discharge. The states with the anti Dragon’s-breath laws always struck me as odd because I expect that IL, CA, and FL would ban these, but Iowa? What’s up with Iowa banning these anyway?

DK, I guess in Iowa a Dragon Breath would really light-up/ignite a neighbor’s cornfield!!!

Thanks to all of you. I think there is a high probability that the lead bullet round is by Rhino. The overall weight of this round is 165gr so the weight of the lead bullet must be 100gr to 105gr. This kind of weight wouldn’t surprise me for a Rhino load.

I really appreciate the inputs on this. Now put on your thinking hats and figure out where the brass bullet round with the FC headstamp was put together…

Lew,

I have a book by DBI BOOKS Inc. published in 1986 titled: The Gun Digest Book of 9MM Handguns by Dean Grennell & Wiley Clapp. Chapter 3, Reloading the 9mm, on page 40 & 41 there’s a brief discussion about casting a bullet that looks very much like an Arcane. The mould used was the Hensley & Gibbs #307. The text states that the bullet has an approx. 65 degree included angle. The picture of the cast bullet next to a loaded 9mmP and .357Mag. makes it look very close to the one in your picture.

Hope this info may be of some assistance to you.

Leon.

Leon, Thanks for the info! Is there any indication of the weight of this load? Can you send me a copy of the info?
Cheers, Lew

Dean Grennell designed the Arcane-looking H&G #938 in .45ACP, and so if there is a 9mm variant, then he might have designed that also. He likes to mention this mold and bullet design in the books he authors or co-authors I guess, since he also plugged it in his book: “Gun Digest book of combat Handgunnery”

There are a few pages of photos with captions and one small blurb in the book, these are the important parts:

The caption talks about “hard alloys”, so I guess they are talking about an aluminum bullet?? When Ballisti-cast took over H&G’s stuff in 1999, I know that the H&G #938 became the Ballisti-cast model #1538

Thanks DK! Makes me wonder where Rhino got their bullets! Could they be from a Hensley & Gibbs mold???

You guys are going to force me to pull this bullet. Problem is I don’t know how to put it back together without screwing up the bullet.

By the way - The Hensley & Gibbs #307 is a 115gr bullet according to this site which keeps data on them:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/hgmoldchart.htm

I don’t know if any of the other molds are Arcane style for H&G, but I sort of doubt it since Ballisti-cast took them over and sort of copied/modified some of the H&G part numbers into their own catalog for cast types which they didn’t have, hence the H&G #307 became the Ballisti-cast #907, both 115gr. Although before this thread and the mention of the book with the details of the #307, I had thought that the #938 was the only Arcane-style mold from H&G, maybe there’s more? The archive site of H&G data above only has a few pictures of certain molds, so who knows.

Still a bit too heavy!!!

DK said: “The caption talks about “hard alloys”, so I guess they are talking about an aluminum bullet?? When Ballisti-cast took over H&G’s stuff in 1999, I know that the H&G #938 became the Ballisti-cast model #1538

In this context I believe that they are talking about hard alloys of lead. Linotype print metal is one such hard alloy frequently used by bullet casters. The alloys are made harder by the addition of Antimony or Tin. Because these two metals are lighter than pure lead the weight of the finished bullet is lighter than a lead bullet from the same mould. I don’t think that you can cast aluminium, or its alloys, in a mould of this type.

gravelbelly

That makes sense Gravelbelly, aluminum would be kind of molten hot and intense to be using in a hand-mold. So I’m guessing that the only metal that can be cast in these molds is lead, or lead alloys. Maybe Zinc/Lead like Zamak.