9x19 finds from SLICS


#1

Here are some of the interesting items I sound at SLICS-Always surprises.


From the right:

– An experimental by CBC with a plastic core bullet. Overall weight is 91 gr. Does anyone have any information on this load? What was it called and what was the purpose?

– This is a Colt SSB load with only a single LEAD bullet in the plastic sleeve. Weight is 94gr. Has anyone seen anything similar??? Know anything about it???

– A new headstamp by IVI in 00, 01 and 02 dates with frangible bullets. The date indicates it is a police or military contract load. Who was it made for???

– This one is French, I suspect. I have a very similar load with a SFM military headstamp from 1981. I obtained this round in the very early 1980s. The SFM headstamped round is on the right below and the norma headstamp load is on the left. Note the slight difference in bullet shape.

Who produced these two loads? Perhaps Philippe R has the answer!

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Nice finds, Lew. I’m not too active in 9x19s, but I also found a few good ones to add to my collection. I hope you don’t mind the intrusion. I think all three of mine are ex-Iraq. Any thoughts or comments?



#3

Jon, could you tell us the head stamp of the right one?


#4

325 05 9 x 19


#5

Jon, that one should be from:
SADU 2, Societatea Comercială UZINA MECANICĂ SADU - S.A., Gorj in Romania


#6

That is true. A similar round was posted a few weeks ago. I also have the 325 code on a 5.45x39 cartridge.


#7

Jon, I was in the process of posting an answer when I lost DSL. Turns out after a lot of calls to AT&T, my modem died!

The S&B load has the Blue primer of some contract loads for Austria from a few years ago. The 04 date is a little early for it to have been made for the Iraq military or police. Could have come from Iraq on a US military off shore contract or from one of the other countries that were their in 04/05.

The middle round is clearly Iraqi production from before the war. As far as I can tell, their arsenal is still closed and the ammo that is being used by the Iraqi government military and police is coming from US off shore buys like the Serbian 7.6c2x54mm I illustrated a few weeks ago.

The other load is Romanian, and could have gotten into Iraq with the Romanian troops that were there or from a number of other sources. It is the standard Romanian military headstamp so I doubt it is a US contract load.

The US contract loads for the Iraqi forces seem to have a standard hst layout with the caliber on top and the two digit date below. This is just an observation and my be totally wrong.

Cheers,

Lew


#8

Interesting, thanks.


#9

With regard to the Norma AP cartridge on the top right in the first photo… with the odd-style THV type bullet. Would this box be the original box to go with cartridges like that, or this box for something else:

Sorry for the image quality, and I don’t have any cartridges from this box, just the box image.


#10

The brown frangible in the IVI case is SNC’s “Greenshield” frangible, a non-toxic round for indoor training.


#11

DK- The rounds for your box look like standard GMCS FMJ RN bulleted rounds out of the box. Aside from their lighter weight, which is a result of a smaller lead core due to the bulled jacket being much thicker at the nose, you cannot tell them from ordinary ball once out of the packaging. They were sold commercially by Norma for years - my empty box is a different end label than yours, but still 104 grain Index 211. The box has nothing at all to do with the round Lew shows. The Norma case was probably used for the first loading simply because it was available. It is not a Norma loading.

How did you come to the conclusion that the round shown on the left of Lew Curtis’ picture is “AP?” Just wondered, since he didn’t state that.

Lew - am surprised you have that bullet in a French military headstamp. Didn’t realize the French bought it. The bullet is the “Schweineschnauze” (Boar Snoot) bullet developed by Dynamit Nobel A.-G., according to the revised edition of Erlmeier-Brandt, which goes along with what I was told when I got mine. I have the bullet in the headstamp “SINTOX 9mm Luger” without a primer seal (pre-production, I think) and with the normal red primer seal. The design was modified to that shape from a regular truncated bullet to stop malfunctions caused by the former bullet’s interference, internally, with the slide stop of the pistols for which it was intended. It evidently was actually designed at the request of the Dutch Police, again according to the Brandt book. The bullet weighs 7 grams (108 grains).

If anyone has information to the contrary, please let us know. There are errors in the Brandt book!

Reference: “Handbuch de Pistolen- und Revolver- Patronen,” revised joint edition of the former Volumes I, II and III, published 1998, by Jakob Brandt (and Hans Erlmeier!!!), page 615.

Edited only to remove two “typos”


#12

Thanks for the info on the box John (that box isn’t for the M39B then is it?). I just assumed that Lew’s Norma-cased cartridge in the top photo was some sort of AP because it looked like a modified THV or SIB style bullet, and looked like either monolithic bronze or copper, and the unique ogive also. I think I’ve seen that bullet in a lineup with other bullets such as THV so I assumed there was some association. The term “AP” is funny sometimes, that some manufacturers would refer to a simple thickened bullet jacket as being “AP”, whilst other times with the steel core German WWII, or post-war Czech 9mm stuff, they never really thought of it as “AP” per-se.


#13

DK - it is not marked like M39B 9mm rounds from Sweden. They have a red primer seal and case-mouth seal for identification. As to the design of the bullet, I can’t say. I can tell you that according to "Ammunitionsregister f


#14

John, The round with the Norma headstamp isn’t a Boar Snoot. The diameter of the top is 0.19" at the base and the top section is tapered toward the tip. The Boar Snoot is 0.245 diameter and is not tapered. In addition, the loaded round is 123 grains. Since a case and powder is in the 55gr-65gr range as I remember, the bullet could only weigh about 63gr, much too light to be a Boar Snoot. The bullet is solid brass like the THV.


#15

By yimminy, Lew is right. When you’re a fat little old man like me, you just automatically want to identify with porcine objects!

I have the French round in question, and to my knowledge it is part of the THV series, the number of designs of which that were actually made is staggering. The picture fooled me, but when I put my French and German rounds (oink! oink!) together, I can see the difference without measuring.

The headstamp on my round is SF 81 I 9mm. Not surprised to see any of this stuff in non-French cases though. A lot of foreign brass, Norma and Winchester it would seem especially, was used in developmental loadings.

Sorry about misleading everyone. Well, at least, now you all know more about the Boar (I don’t mean John Moss, as in “bore” or “Boar”) Snoot round than you ever wanted to know, along with the right information from Lew.

I think I’ll start collecting the 5.7 Velo Dog and the .450 British Revolver, instead of 9mm.


#16

John, Don’t collect .450 Revolver. Then I’d have to engrave out two copies of all the queer headstamps I’ve been making up for Chris P!!!


#17
  • @ John C.: Your 9mm Para headstamped “325 05 9X19” is the standard Romanian 9X19 cartridge of today for some weapons [pistols and submachine-gun models] manufactured in Romania after 1990. The cartridge was made at “U.M. Sadu” [not Sadu 2 or other names] located in Gorj county [Romania]. Liviu 09/15/08

#18

Liviu - in "Gazeta de Sud (Cotidian al oltenilor de pretutindeni), issue of Anul 12, nr. 3720, Marti (Tuesday) 08 Mai (May) 2007, in an article entitled “Uzina Mecanica Sasu va disponibiliza 200 de angajati,” it talks about an American firm intending to invest in “Uzina Mecanica Sadu II, pentru a produce armament pentru structurile militar ale NATO.”

It seems that there most definitely is “Uzina Mecanica SADU II” at Gorj.

Sorry for the lack of Romanian punctuation on the words. It is not there for me to do like the punctuation for German, Spanish, Italian etc. I was surprised that I could read a little of the article, although certainly no where near all of it. There is some similarity to Italian. I suspect if my Itlaian was better, I could have read more of it.


#19
  • @ John Moss: That Romanian made 9X19 rimless cartridge and headstamped “325 05 9X19” was manufactured in the year 2005. That article you mentioned was dated 2007 and it had mentioned that something it would be done [probably] in the future. How do you know for sure that the 9X19 round [mentioned above] made in 2005 was manufactured by “Uzina Mecanica Sadu II” ??? How do you know if that 9X19 round was not made by “U.M. Sadu I” ??? I’m asking this because there were “Sadu I” and “Sadu II” with a different location and each one established in a different year with a different production task. Can you answer to my questions??? Liviu 09/15/08

#20

Liviu - no, I can’t answer your question, although I don’t quite know the point of it. Your original reply seemed to indicate that there was NO Sadu II, which we have established there was. Can you document that the cartridge from 1005 was NOT made at Sadu II. Note, I said “document?” I am not making any plain statement that it was, since I can’t document it. All I have documented was that Sadu II existed. that’s why I gave the reference - because I documented what I said.

By the way, may I mention that you acknowledged the cartridge was made at SADU at Gorj. To quote you “The cartridge was made at “UM Sadu” (not Sadu2 or other names) located in Gorj country…” The Romanian paper that I documented here said that SADU II was at Gorj. You said that SADU I and SADU II were at different locations. It seems to me that if you were correct that the cartridge was made at Gorj, it settles the argument and that EOD was correct.

In all of this, I am only going by Documentation, linked together with what you, yourself, said. Where does that leave this?