Thought you would enjoy seeing this drawing from:
Thought you would enjoy seeing this drawing from:
Lew - were the unheadstamped F A 9 mm made during WWII. I had thought they were post-war, maybe as late as the VN period? Any information on that would be appreciated. All I have is a primed empty case, but that is the most important part, at least.
The drawing is interesting. I wonder if they ever actually made any with an F A 42 headstamp, even in a small trial lot? Any comments on that. I realize that a factory drawing doesn’t always mean that they made the subject of the drawing.
Lew, very cool. But, cannot read the drawing… any chance of a higher quality scan?
Thta is a manual I would love to have, along with the other volume, of course!
I posted this as an example that just because it is documented doesn’t prove it exists. The paragraph associated with this drawing simply say that the Ordnance Department procured large quantities of 9mm P during WWII. There is no indication that the Ordnance Department, which operated FA produced 9mm P.
In HWS Vol 3 there is no indication that FA or any government arsenal produced 9mmP during WWII. I suspect the creator of the drawing had no idea what Winchester or Western put on their WWII production so he just put “FA 42” and he may have used a 1942 date because that appears to be the time frame that the Ordnance Department began procuring 9mmP for US use.
John, the unheadstamped FA 9mmP were produced and loaded by FA for the CIA, specifically for Col Burkett who has been previously mentioned in the Forum This ammunition was loaded with commercial bullets, a Super Vel 90gr HP and a Hornady 125gr SP (per HSW Vol3-pg 475). The material in HSW says they were made for the Secret Service in 1969. This may be true, but the original production apparently began in 1965 and included an API in 9mmP (HSW 3 pg477). The only know rounds were a few obtained from Col Burkett who was very specific that he arranged the manufacture when he worked for the CIA. The API design was based on an API bulled designed for the 30 Carbine and the bullet was unmarked.
Jack, here is the full size image.
FA Dwg of 9mm FA42.pdf (298.4 KB)
Lew - Thanks for the added information. I was, for once, correct in my thoughts that the actual FA production came during the VN war.
I don’t know why I didn’t think of Volume III HSW. I think when I got that book I was still distracted with more important things and never gave it a real thorough “look-see” like I did with Volumes I and II. I appreciate very much receiving the references you gave. I will read they sometime today.
Since the commercial bullets are not particular interesting, no being anything “special,” I am even happier with my NPE case!
Lew, this drawing was superseded by number B6257589 with revisions up to 1953 (Revision 5). The only significant changes are the primer material specifications and a four position “F A 5 3” headstamp. This one has the same layout as the “F A 5 5” found in an unfinished case.
Thanks Fede and Rolf! Thanks for the info. The drawing of the dummy is in the same doucment, I just didn’t look for it.
It would be great if someone came up with one of these cartridges or dummies, ideally one that is legit. However, I am not holding my breath.
John, The SP and HP rounds are only interesting because of the source. I would not recommend them unless they could be traced back to Col Burkett. What is interesting is the API rounds which look like a ordinary FMJ. But when Frank Hackley told me about them, I put a magnetic to mine and sure enough the bullet is very slightly magnetic on the tip and much more magnetic at the casemouth. just as you’d expect from the drawing in HSW 3.
Lew, Rolf, Fede, is that doc somewhere available in complete?
Both drawings and many others are in the document pictured at the beginning of the article. It was issued in Jan 1946. I ran across it as I was putting together publications and documents to send to the IAA Web Master for posting on the members only section of the IAA website. These are things being sold on my website (gigconceptsinc.com) at a discount to IAA members. Most are what I have listed on my website, along with some draft material that I never listed, will be free to IAA members. I still have to create an index for this material. I should get it to the Aaron in early January, along with about 11 of the 34 boxes of material from the Labbett, Mead & Edwards Archives which the IAA paid to digitize. The IAA board decided to preserve this information and make it available to members for their research. There is some incredible material in the boxes I have indexed and organized. Other volunteers indexed and organized other boxes that I have never dug through!
Given the cost of mailing, I no longer print any of the material offered on my website, but will offer it for sale as pdf files to non-members, or they can join the IAA and access it for free!!!
Thanks, much appreciated.
Might the person making the drawing used 1942 as the date because the drawing was made in 1942?
Perhaps FA was used because Frankford was the most recognized of the manufacturers?
I believe that the US started buying 9mm P from Winchester in 1942. The early Western procduction is headstamped “WCC 42”. Earlier Winchester production was on contracts to other countries, primarily the UK. This drawing was likely done to document the rounds the US was procuring from Winchester and Western. Note that the Western headstamp has the same format as that in the drawing. The bullet is also the 115gr with the dished base. This round was only produced in the US before 1939 by Winchesterfor a Mexican contract and another for an unnamed South American country. It was also used buy Winchester for their large 1939 contract with Finland which was subsequently taken over by Britain. This bullet was clearly not a FA design.