9x19 German 50 round box, red PA and CM, 1942/1943

A wonderfull box on Gunbroker:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/898866037




Mixed dnh 2 42 5 42 1 43 2 43

Norbert Berg

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Versions of this box occur in a number slight variations, This box clearly does not meet German Army requirements, nor does the ammuntion follow the general army practice of using black for casemouth seals. The code dnh is the Geco plant in Durlach, identified as RWS in the German code book. Both RWS and were owned by the same company prior to WWII and divided which products they loaded. Generally RWS made rifle rounds for both and Geco made auto pistol rounds (both those with Geco and RWS hjeadstamps) beginning in the 1930s.The 50 rd box, the mixed date/lots on the cases and the lack of component identification all indicate it is very likely not for Army issue.

I am convinced that this ammunition was produced on contract for the SS or for some other Nazi organization.

A very nice item! Thanks for posting.

Lew

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Red primer and red ring on the bullet ? Proof cartridges? I have no Idea.

These are not proof cartridges but ordinary ball cartridges which were called “oeldicht” (oil proof) on the commercial market (primer and case mouth sealed by lacquer). The only difference from commercial production is the military headstamp.

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In 1942 and 1943, I don’t believe there was any “commercial” production of 9x19mm ammunition in Germany. The Army land Airforce were provided with ammunition made and packed to military specifications. I suspect the same is true of the Navy but have found no documentation or boxes to support that suspicion. The Army also apparently supplied ammunition SS units in combat theaters, but resisted providing ammunition for SS training and SS units not in combat theaters. Most organizations that were part of, or were controlled by, the Nazi party (Like the SA guarding ports and the various police and security organizations) apparently obtained their ammunition through Nazi sources. There are indications in some sources that Himmler was attempting to create a Nazi supply structure for arms and ammunition in parallel and seperate from the system under Speer. Ammunition plants in some occupied countries appeared to be under the control of the SS toward the end of the war. It is not clear that there was a market for “commercial” 9mmP ammunition as we know it today or a retail distribution process. I have been told that, after 1941 or so, civilians were not allowed to own or possess pistols, but have not seen any documentation of this.

I am sure there are some errors in my understanding and would appreciate corrections.

Lew

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Lew, looks like my wording should have been clearer.
The response to AmmoOne (who had proposed these cartridges could be proof rounds), tried to say that there was nothing special about them. I did not intend to call them commercial.

My intention was to say that the cartridges have red lacquer on case mouth and primer to simply make them oil-proof. That makes these wartime cartridges technically identical to the pre-war (announced about 1934) commercial “oeldicht” variant of 9 mm Parabellum.

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My friend, I understood that you knew these are nor “commercial” in the traditional sense. I plead guilty of using your use of this term to go on a fishing expedition!

I have been totally unsuccessful in finding, in English, any more than brief and passing mention of the non-military munitions supply system used during war to provide ammunition to the non-combat Nazi organizations. In fact there appears to have been no 'commercial" system for supplying 9mm P08 ammunition even before the war since this caliber is usually not mentioned in the Inland/German ammunition catalogs but does appear in the Export catalogs. I haven’t found a clear reference in English of the legal status of 9mm P08 weapons and ammunition from 1919 through 1945. I was hoping that my previous post would provide some information on these subjects.

Thanks for all the great information you provide on the Forum. You and Frede are real treasure troves.

Cheers,
Lew

Regarding the status of 9 mm cartridges, the only documented sources are of a relative late date.

  1. In fullfillment of the Versailles obligations a law on disarmament of the population (Gesetz zur Entwaffnung der Bevölkerung) of 7 Aug 1920 was put into effect. Contrary to its title its intention was directed at military weapons. A decree regulating the carrying out of this law (22 Aug 1920) mentioned as handguns only “Armeerevolver” (military revolvers).
  2. After that the law regarding import and export of war materiel (Gesetz betreffend die Ein- und Ausfuhr von Kriegsgerät) of 20 Dec 1920 became the official list of war materiel. Apart from machine guns it defines “military small arms” (militärische Handfeuerwaffen) as illegal. This included the ammunition.
  3. This law was considered too lax by the Inter-Allied Military Control commission and had to be replaced by a new text an 26 Jun 1921. But its text regarding small arms remained the same.
  4. It was replaced on 27 Jul 1927 by a new law about war material (Gesetz über Kriegsgerät). This law, for the first time has a documented definition of which handguns are war material:
  • when the barrel is longer than 98 millimeters OR
  • when the caliber is larger than 8 millimeters.
    The 1927 law (after the IMCC had left Germany) for the first time made it possible to obtain export licenses for war material. So from this time on it was possible to offer war material like 9 mm Parabellum cartridges for export, but not for civilian sale in Germany.
  1. On 6 Nov 1935 it was replaced by a new law on export and import of war materiel (Gesetz über Aus- und Einfuhr von Kriegsgerät). It is very short, because it deleted the list of war materiel from the text of the law and left the definition to the discretion of the government. At first, the caliber limit of 8 mm was upheld (decree by Reichskommissar für Aus- und Einfuhrbewilligung of 16 Nov 1935).
  2. Another decree by the Reichskommissar of 12 Feb 1936 finally lifted this limit. Pistols -unless being sub-machine guns (Maschinenpistole in German)- and revolvers were no longer considered war materiel. At last, 9 mm handguns and their ammunition were again legal for Germans.

There is no doubt from contemporary journals that the 8 mm caliber and 98 millimeter barrel limits became officially effective due to IMCC in Germany long before the 1927 law. But so far, I did not find any documentary evidence in this regard.

I think the above explains why 9 mm Luger can be found in export, but not in domestic catalogs of German manufacturers.

Edited: corrected length to 98 mm

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Nice box, nice cartridges. I noticed this box contains headstamps lot 1 (one) and 2 (two) also… I count at least 5 times lot 1.So it is not a complete original box, or they have packed 2 different lot’s together ?
Grtz Jaco

Lew,
I add some different 50 boxes with different labels.dnh 41 3 L   50er  08




P 405  Schachtel
P 405 1 40  ) Parabellim
P 405  Schachtel Inhalt P 405  Schachtel Inhalt Patrone ![DSCN6691|690x517]

Norbert Berg

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Jaco,
Most of the boxes of this type I have documented have mixed case lots. The box pictured in the top post includes lot 2 of 1942 and lots 1 & 2 of 1943. This use of mixed case lots in another indication that they are almost surely not made for the German Military.

,Peelen
Many thanks for the excellent rundown on the legality of owning a 9mm Para caliber handgun in Germany. Particularly interesting to me is the fact that from early 1936 it was legal for a German to own 9mm Para handguns and 9mm P08 ammunition. I don’t seem to have any copies of the Geco Domestic/Inland catalogs handy. Can anyone confirm when the 9mm Parabellum Cartridge first showed up in these catalogs?

I understand, perhaps incorrectly, The the Nazi government tightly controlled who could own pistols. Does anyone have insights into the limits on who could get a permit for handguns, particularly 9mm Parabellum caliber?

Norbert,
Thank you for the photos of the dnh 50round boxes!

1st box (dnh 1941:/3.L.): I have this identical box but mine is empty. It is great to know what was in this box. Am I correct that the headstamp is “dnh St 1 41”?

2nd box (dnh 1941/187.L.) I have a very similar box butd Lot 47 instead of Lot 187. My box contains cases headstamped “dnh * 2 41” and yours appears to contain lot 3.

3rd box: This one appears to be identical to the one posted at the top of this topic. Does it have a date code stamped inside the end flap or on the back of the box?

4th box: This is interesting because this box is now in mhy collection. The date code (VS T) is identical as are the contents and the damage to the label! Does this mean that you were once the owner of this box???

5th box: I assume there is no top label for this box. Any idea of he headstamp on he cartridges?

Great info, many thanks!

Lew

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hello
for 8x33 ,the rounds on the first box had copper plated cases ?

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Yes, they are copper plated steel cases. That is what the blue band across the front of the box means.

Also on the box label the “Stahl” means Steel in the segment of the label below that identifies the case data:
image

and, the “St” (not very visable) on the hedstamp.
image

That is a very nice box. Mine is empty!!! :frowning_face: :cry:

Lew

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thank for your info

I have me too the box with Coppered Steel case 9mm para (dnh St 1 41)

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very beautiful box and complete and the rounds look perfect without corrosion

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Shining,
Anmmogun is exactly right. That is a beautiful box. Maybe someday if I’m a good boy, Santa will bring me one!

Its interesting that we have three of these boxes documented here and all are the same, Lot 3. Where are lots 1 and 2?

The equivalent brass case rounds with German Army style labels go out to at least lot 187. I doubt the brass and steel case rounds were in the same lot number sequence, but I could be wrong. I suspect Rolf F could shed some light on this!

Thanks for the photo.

Lew

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Lew ,
the box with Oeldicht is the box which contains the last P 405 1 40 cartridges

Norbert

Thank you, i’m realy happy for have find this one.
I have just 5 box of 9mm para German WW2, normaly i’m not lucky with this caliber… I’m realy much lucky with 7,92mm or Pinfire :wink:

Norbert,
I have an identical box, but in more worn condition that if full of the same P 405 cartridges.

Cheers,
Lew