9x19 LRN 1975 / 7,9x57 solid dummy

Hi,

On the photos two strange rounds for ID.
#1 9x19 , tombac washed steel case + lead bullet. Case looks like as 9x18 Makarov, but have a 19,5 mm length.
I never seen official made /Mesko/ this type round - especially case with 1975.
Maybe round is “home made”, but case from this year with dimensions for 9x19 is interesting.

full length 28,70 mm
rim 9,90 mm
neck case 9,50 mm
full length case 19,50 mm

P1248880 P1248881

#2 solid dummy round, steel with “hand made” markings, if PL made - maybe its a “SZ” looks like a “SZkolny” - training. [if it’s not a fake]

P7025163 P7025164

Thanks.

Regards,
Przemek

I think both are “homemade”.

Respect, А.

1 Like

The cartridge case on your Polish 9mm is too late in date for the early 9 mm loadings for the RADOM VIS 9 mm Pistol (German Designation P35p) and too early for the current 9 mm pistols and SMGs. The fact that the cartridge case is too long for 9 x 18 mm Makarov tells me that it was remanufactured from a 7.62 x 25 mm case. While I don’t have one in my own collection of any date (all except for one greenish lacquered-steel case round), Polish 7.62 x 25 mm rounds with copper-washed steel cases are known from 1975 thru at least 1977 in ball loadings, and in 1979 in a blank. Earlier Polish Tokarev rounds were in brass cases. With pistol ammunition, only the 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge is found in CWS in 1970s dates, and as you know, it is excluded due to the length of the case of your cartridge.

The conversion of a 7.62 Tokarev case to 9 x 19 mm Parabellum is quite simple.

John Moss

What if somebody used a 9x18 blank case (which is longer than 18mm as we know)? The slightly rounded / tapered case mouth on this 9x19 would fit the shape of a 9x18 blank which got trimmed to 19mm.

EOD - the same could be said for the standard 7.62 x 25 case, with the shoulder beginning at only a tiny fraction above 19 mm, the length of a 9 mm Para case. I believe the rounded end of the case of the cartridge shown is simply the normal way to crimp a lead bullet for many reloaders, although rimless cases in my view should always use a taper crimp, so as not to create excessive headspace by shortening the case. Further, do you know of a Polish CWS-case blank from Arsenal 21, with a “75” headstamp. They may exist, but I have only seen “77” and “79” dates on steel-case Police Makarov blanks.

I personally think, based on 58 years of reloading, that making such a cartridge out of the 7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev case, which should be found in far more abundance to anyone in a position to get either caliber of fired cases, than 9 x 18 mm fired blanks, or even live ones for that matter.

Just my opinion. It would likely take direct comparisons and very precise measurements, to come up with a positive conclusion, and may not even then, as to which case might have been used.

John Moss

PS - I forgot to ask if by “blank case” you meant a piece from a draw set, or a case from a blank cartridge (platzpatrone)? I also forgot to mention that if a fired 9 x 18 mm for a noise-producing blank cartridge was used, even if sized inside and out, should show evidence of the high number of rosebud crimps (lobes) that close the Polish 9 x 18 mm Blank cartridges. There does not appear to be a trace of them on that lead-bullet reload.

John, as for the 9x18 blank I know “77” and “78”. You say you also know a “79”. So a “75” would be no surprise I think.
My comment was just one more possibility to be observed here.

The 9x18 blank I meant a loaded or fired blank firing case/round. The rose crimped section starts quite a bit above 19mm, so cutting one down, slightly widening the taper and inserting a proj. should be no big issue.

As said I just meant to say that there is 2 ways to make such a 9x19 - from a TT (or TT blank which btw. exists with 21 75 hs) or a Mak. blank.

John, as we discussed, I have never seen or heard of any 21 coded Polish Tokarev ball rounds made after 1955. The only documented CWS Polish Tokarevs are blanks, dated 70, 71, 73, 75, 77, and 79.

After discussion with Jonnyc, and some thought, I would doubt that the 9 x 19 mm cartridge in question would have been made from a ball-round case, as it is CWS, and it seems that all of the CWS case TT cartridges from Poland known are blank rounds. However, I still don’t think that the 9 x 18 mm Makarov blanks would serve well for making 9 x 19 cases. Again, just my opinion, but one that hasn’t changed. Being made from a fired, or even live 7.62 x 25 blank would be no different than making it from a fired or live TT ball-round case.

John

I forgot about 7,62x25 : ). Thanks.