9x19 (Sintered Iron) dnh St+ 10 44

Inert example.
There has previously been a number of posts with the dnh headstamp. Therefore; apologies in advance for repetition.
Thought I’d post this just in case it might be of interest.

Projectile and case are strongly attracted to a magnet.
Black primer seal.
Black neck seal (Tropical?).
Case is dark green grey. I’ve adjusted the color (on two photographs) to try to reduce the blue.
Any thoughts, or comments, would be appreciated.

hello
the bullet look more “acier fritté” than mE bullet

in the past i had one round similar to your but without the neck sealant

It looks like the SE (Sintered Iron) bullet to me, also.

John Moss

Many thanks ammogun and JohnMoss. Have edited the heading :slightly_smiling_face:

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When did the Germans cease using the case mouth seal?

Yes, I agree it is a Sintereisen-bullet, I have the same cartridge, same lot. I have not yet encountered “later” Trop-cartridges (but that does not mean of course they do not exist). Philosophy was that the extra-seal protected the powder against temperature and humidity variations in tropical climate but it seems the German navy used these cartridges also which may not surprise at all.

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Duqjans,
How do we know that the German Navy used these cartridges??? I have never been able to identify a German 9mmP box since the 1914 Navy boxes. I have some evidence that the German Navy used 50 round boxes during the later part of WWI but have never identified one. After WWI I have only seen boxes i believe are commercial or German Army or from the late 1930s, boxs clearly procured to non-Army specs for the Nazi controlled organizations. If some of these are Navy please let me know how to identify them. Perhaps you would would like to start a new thread on the subject!

Now to German case mouth seals during WWII!
The case mouth seals from the WWI years come in both black and red. The majority of both have RWS (dnf) or Geco (dnh P405,X) other companies only made a few lots early in the war. The list below is from a quick look and is not intended to be definative.

—rfo St+ 44 red seal-one lot (#41)
—emp * 40 red cms
—emp * 41 black cms
—dnh * 41, 42, 43 black cms
—dnh St+ 41, 42, 43 black cms
—dnh St+ 41, 42, 43, 44 red cms
—P405 39, 40 red cms
—X black cms, SE bullet
—hla * 41 black cms
—dnf * 41 black cms
—dnf VIIf1 41 red cms
—va St+ 44 red cms
—wa St+ 44 red cms

cheers,
Lew

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Thanks for that list Lew. Any significance to the red cms? I assume all have a black primer annulus? Guessing color codes on WWII German 9mm mean little, as with the 7,9 Kurzpatrone?

Some of the red cms on dnhP405 rounds also have Sinoxid primers, are often in 50rd boxes with non-military labels and often very shiny silver bullets (nickel or chrome). I think these were not made for the German Army but more likely for on Nazi associated organization or another. Just my opinion from the boxes.

The red cms on va 44 and wa 44 also have red bases. An apparently knowledgeable collector thinks these are field produced proof rounds made by ordnance shops in the field that didn’t have access to the factory made green base proofs. The range of red base rounds and their diversity has convinced me that they are legit and field made. The Austrian’s explanation is the most, in fact the only, logical explanation I have heard!

True bottom line is that I have no documented data on the red cms.

Lew

I refer to Ger Chubbuck’s book(7.9x57 Mauser Ammunition Volume I) and Die Patrone 7,9 etc ( Windisch, Micke &Kellner) about the use of trop by the Kriegsmarine. When the navy used this kind of 7.9, it seems evident she used the 9mm too. As far as I know, WWII “navy-(cardboard) boxes” do not exist. On that point, strange enough, the Germans had not lost their burocratic senses.
And about case mouth and primer seals: here are some to add to your list.

Duqjans,
I have the Windisch, Micke & Kellner book and found a comment on 6.1.1 about the use of Tropic ammo for the Luftwaffe and Marine. I agree that the Navy must have also used 9mmP08, and likely tropic sealed loads. I don’t have Chubbuck’s book.

It is clear that the Luftwaffe had their own munitions facilities and I have a number of normal “Army” P08 boxes with Luftwaffe stamps. I have never seen a box with a Navy stamp that I recognized as such,

The metal Navy containers I have seen (all WWI vintage) were marked to hold 14 50rd boxes. Perhaps during WWII the Navy still used used 50rd boxes, If so, here are three tropic pack 50 rounds boxes, two of which were clearly not Army. I had thought they may have been for non-military organizations like the Nazi SA that guarded ports (according to one reference) or other organizations that didn’t have access to Army ammunition. Perhaps these could be intended for the Navy.
The top 50rd box below is obviously to Army specifications, and the two lower ones are clearly not to Army specs.

Cheers,
Lew
image

This is not challenging the statement, but an honest question to which I don’t know the answer. Why is the top box above, or the 16 round versions with the same label format, to “Army Standards?” I had always thought of those 16 round boxes, since I have never seen one with specific Navy or Air Force markings, as simply made to MILITARY Standards, ie: The Wehrmacht, which included the Army, Navy and Airforce.

Does anyone have a document specifically titled “Army Standard” or similar marking (of course in German) indicating boxes so-labeled like that of the top box were meant only for the Army (Heer)?

John Moss

There is no doubt in my view that the army standard (manual D410 of 1937) was the label for 16 round boxes. Allocations of pistol ammunitions for training or to military bodies were made in mutiples of 16. For example, in 1938 the basic allocation to an Infanterie-Regiment was exactly 7024 rounds (only, no submachine guns yet).
Regarding the navy, we only know for sure (manual MDv 185,3 of 1940, including 1943 changes) that Kriegsmarine used a container called “Patronenkasten 04” for pistol ammunition. It held either:
700 cartridges “scharfe Pistolenpatrone 04” or
800 cartridges “scharfe Pistolenpatrone 08”
Alas, there is no detail in the manual about any lower level packaging. We can only guess: 800 is divisible by 16, 700 is not.

It is surprising that a manual from 1940 still lists Pistolenpatrone 04 (the original 9 mm Parabellum) as a separate entity from Pistolenpatrone 08. Bullet weights listed are identical (8 g). Bullet length is 15.5 mm for the 04 and 15.7 mm for the 08 (the latter identical to army data).

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JPeelen,
Thanks! I do not have those two references. I called the boxes “Army Standard” because that is obviously what they are, though at least some of those intended for the Air Force have Luftwaffe stamps. The organizations associated with ammunition also seem to have German Army organizational designations( WaA), or so it seems to me, but I could be mistaken.

During WWII the munitions acquisition was under the control of The Reich Ministry of Armaments and War Production ( German Reichsministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion ) which was established on March 17, 1940, References indicate this organization had considerable control over both the Navy and the Air Force, but are unclear regarding the Navy. In any case, the “Army Standard” labels were well established by this time.

It is very interesting that the Navy manual calls the ammunition both 04 and 08. Early Navy P04 ammunition had DWM commercial style headstamps and the following label.

The earliest obviously military P04 label I have documented was from June 1909.
image

The last Navy P04 box I have documented in Nov 1914.
image

There there is at least one early box that appears to have been re-inspected in the 1930s so this ammunition mahy have still been issued in WWII

There are two of the German Navy waterproof containers with labels that I have documented. Note that some unlabeled containers have been relabeled with copies of one or the other of these labels.

Note that one of these containers was originally intended for 50 of the 16 round P04 boxes like those above, but was re-stamped tor 14 of the 50 round boxes.
image

The other watertight container had a P08 label. It is interesting that it was also intended for 14 of the 50round boxes and was originally dated 1918. I have never seen a DWM 50 round box from this period. Nor have I documented 50 round boxes by other German manufacturers of P08 ammunition. What P08 ammunition went into these boxes is still a mystery, at least to me!
image
What is also interesting about this box is that it was still apparently being used in 1941 based on the entry in the upper right corner. What kind of 50 round boxes were in this container in 1941 is an interesting question, It could have well been one of the 50 round boxes I pictured above.

Still a lot of questions about the 50 round boxes above.

Information and opinions on this subject are welcome!

Cheers,
Lew

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Lew,
I think instead of the Nov 1914 16 round label you show the June 1909 label twice.

Regarding the the Armament Ministry, we must keep in mind that its head Fritz Todt was killed in an aircrash in February 1942. Todt was not effective in this position. Only his successor Albert Speer, due to his closeness to Hitler, was in a position to become the dominating figure in German armament production. In any case, it was an uphill fight against military establishment, to gain more and more authority. Even so, infantry ammunition production remained under control of Heereswaffenamt (the responsible office having moved to Magdeburg) even in 1945. There exist fragmentary records in Bundesarchiv, in which orders are given to factories how many cartridges of a given type are to be produced. Even the old cover address of “STAMAG” (Stahl- und Maschinenbau AG) for Heereswaffenamt remained in use.

Can someone please post a picture of a 16-round box with Luftwaffe markings on it, as alluded to by Lew. I have never seen one, and would like to know what to look for.

Regarding WWII-era production, the R.M.R.K., in my understanding, was just what the name implies - a Ministry for War Production - which controlled all three services of the Wehrmacht. However, I think it was the Heeres Waffenamt that governed ammunition production for the German Army. Whether or not it was the R.M.R.K. or the WaA that controlled ammunition supplies to the other branches of the Wehrmacht, I simply do not know.

It is not surprising that the Navy had its own style of container for the Pistolenpatronen 08, watertight, which the cardboard 832 round (also divisible by 16) was certainly not. However, from the WWII era, has anyone seen one of these actually marked specifically for the Luftwaffe or the Kriegmarinen (or for the matter, specifically for the Heer), on the original labeling? Even if designed by some Army Authority, that does not preclude use by all branches of the Wehrmacht.

While I have one of the Navy boxes from “D. W. & M. K.” it is marked somewhat differently from the ones pictured above. The left-hand block of the top label says, not rubber stamped but with the original printing, “16 9 mm Patr. f. Pistole 04.” Those “for Pistol 04” markings appear to have been added by rubber stamp to the labels shown by Lew. The date of my box is hard to read, but appears to be of manufacture on 19 August 1914 (19.8.14) and beneath the primer marking line in the right hand block of of the top label says “Grötzingen,” printed on the label originally, not added by rubber stamp.

The interesting thing to me is that none of the Navy labels actually refer to the Cartridge as “9 mm Patrone 04.” What they actually say, including the very early one, is that the box contains 9 mm Cartridges for (expressed as “zur” on the early box and “f.” abbreviation for “fur” on the later one) the Pistol 04. The 04 designation is actually referring to the pistol and not to the cartridges, which are identified solely as 9 mm cartridges for 04 pistol. See picture below, of 1914 box for the Navy type “04” pistol, as well as two of the WWII vintage 832 round containers for the Pistolenpatrone 08 m.E.

Can someone post a picture of the page in the Navy manual alluded to that calls the ammunition ITSELF, “04” so we can document that as being that actual name of the cartridge. Of course, for ammunition made before 1908, the cartridge designation could not have been “Pistolenpatrone 08,” so perhaps is was designated “04,” but it would be nice to document it.

Edit - I did not see Peelen’s last entry before posting mine, which was interrupted during the typing of it by a long phone call. Not sure that it really changes anything in my entry above, however. I still have much the same questions in trying to actually document this label-thing.

John Moss

Tomorrow I will try to post an image of the relevant part of the page and the change page (dropping “scharfe” from the designation) in the cited manual, which is:
MDv 185,3 "Abmessungen, Gewichte und Raumbedarf der Munition und ihrer Packgefäße, 3. Abschnitt. Berlin: Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine, 1941 (Vom 31. März 1940; mit Deckblättern 1-9, Stand November 1943)

I’ve posted the correct image of the Nov 1914 Navy box.

John,
I recognize your c 04 box since you were kind enough to send me a great image when I was working on my German Navy box article for the IA Journal.

Here are images of va & dou boxes with Luftwaffe Eagle stamps and one with the overlabel of a Luftwaffe munitions depot!.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/unknown-markings-on-german-wwi-and-wwii-9mm-p08-boxes/12604

Some additional:

image

Lew

Here are a few more:
image

image

kam box
image
Has anyone seen this stamp before? I do not recall seeing anything similar. The only Luftwaffe organization I know of that was in the area was Luftkriegsschule 4 (4th Air War School) based at Fürstenfeldbruck established in 1935. It isn’t obvious to me why they, or anyone else would put this stamp on a kam box.I have been concerned this stamp is not original and would appreciate opinions.

I think I have one in my tiny 9mm collection. Checked by the Luftwaffe

Breitenbach_zpsbd118b11.jpg~original

Is it impossible that the army used other packings than the 16-round boxes?
I have this one in my files, Image source: Internet.
I think the “X” was made for the army.

The reason I asked, by 7,9 Mauser also boxes exist with 20 and 50 rounds in a box.

Lew, you are showing the inside label. On the outside nothing is written on the label.

p08_onbekend_(2)
p08_onbekend

Rgds

hello
normally the “X” stamped cartridges are subsonic for silenced weapons