9x19mm 124gr "Made for Sellier Bellot by Ruag in Germany"


#1

Quote SGAmmo:

“9mm Luger 124 grain FMJ European government contract ammo. Made for Sellier Bellot under contract by Ruag in Germany. The story on this ammo is that Sellier & Bellot won a contract for the EU government but had a lot of the ammo manufacturing sourced out to Ruag in Germany.”

http://www.sgammo.com/product/sellier-bellot/sold-out-more-coming-next-week-1000-round-case-9mm-luger-124-grain-fmj-europe


Brian


SB-R 9x19?
#2

Brian, most interesting! Thanks for showing.
Is the HS there “SB-R”?


#3

I just noticed that today from the subscriber list emails they send out. The impressive thing is the price-point for that kind of brass cased ammo, which at $182.95 per 1000 puts them right around the lowest prices you would normally find these days for cheaper brands like Aguila, Armscor, Maxxtech brass, or maybe Remington green/white box 115gr. $182.95 is excellent for 124gr of the sort of quality which I assume it is - Euro government contract stuff from RUAG - no wonder SG sold out quickly of the first batch they had. SGammo is always decent on shipping cost as well, which looks like $16 for 1000 of these. Many places would be over $20 for shipping.


#4

Alex,

The headstamp picture is from SGAmmo online pictures and the headstamp appears to be " SB-R 9x19 ".

So what is the relationship between RUAG and S&B? I thought S&B was part of CBC/MagTech/MEN.

Brian


#5

another new 9 mm headstamp, like come and gone already before most
of us knew about it. Incredible. Where does this stop? New headstamps
used to be a joy to collectors - now, I know of several top collectors that are
losing interest in all this new stuff being sold now.


#6

Brian, after all it is business. Having said this we are learning daily that there is almost nothing that can or will prevent one company buying from another. No matter how large their competition is.

I know of really large companies in the ordnance section which are serious competitors but still have joint programs they are working on and are delivering components to each other.
It seems today noone can be picky when it comes to his customers and in particular not in the arms industry which is (in Germany) well restricted and handcuffed. So business with a competitor is still better than no business.


#7

Everything is possible in business.
But we should keep in mind that RUAG Stadeln has moved production of ordinary 9 mm to Hungary. As far as I can tell only the non-toxic police/military variatons are still produced in Germany.
Looking at the headstamp (spacing of 9x19), I am very sceptical that these were made by RUAG in Stadeln.
The CIP symbol is that of the Ulm proof house while RUAG Stadeln boxes normally show Munich.


#8

I would guess it’s another S&B activity for foreign customer…like recently “TOP SHOT”. Check my other post for the exact same white boxes with sticker with marking. To be 100% sure pull out one cartridge when you get them and de-prime the case. Should there will be blue lacquer on the primer compound - it’s S&B for sure. In the meanwhile I will ask the guys from the factory, whether they have made something like pictured above.


#9

This ammo is back in stock as of 5 minutes ago. My order for 1 case went through successfully


#10

Here is a closer look at the headstamp:


#11

Does anyone have more information about these cartridges? This box does not look at all like a product made by any of the factories owned by RUAG. Also, why would they be making ammunition for the competition group?

In my opinion, since this is a product distributed in USA by Magtech, it is more likely that it was manufactured by MEN. The box construction and label looks very similar to the one find in other MEN “white boxes” distributed by Magtech. Also, the carton for 1000 cartridges indicates it was packed in Germany, not in Hungary, Switzerland, or the Czech Republic.

Any ideas?

Regards,

Fede


#12

I have already asked MEN, but they declined…
The proofhouses does not reveal, who was the Company giving the order to CIP-Approve the ammo, as I asked them…
But as JPeelen already mentioned, ist funny that not Munich has approved the ammo, but Ulm (which usually tests MEN ammo, if they produce civilian Batches)…
I will ask again at MEN with pics from the boxes and the better headstamp now…
But for the Price given from DK, usually you cannot get ammo in Germany…
RUAGS cheapest Price to the Dealers for 200000 rounds was at last 185€ per mille…in Germany and without freight costs…and MEN is normally a Little bit MORE expensiv, as RUAG…
But will see.
If I get an answer, i will post it here…
If I get no answer, I will check at the IWA personally with my friends in both factories in Person…
Maybe than, they are more free in speech as on paper…

Peter


#13

Peter, thanks, I hope you get an answer from them.

By the way, do you know which countries bought S&B 9mm Para cartridges with “SB” headstamp?

Regards,

Fede


#14

This sounds like it is more likely an MEN product than a RUAG product. These white boxes usually show up in the US, and particularly at SGA as production overruns components loaded for cheap commercial sale. A few years ago S&B had a contract with Saudi Arabia for 9mm P headstamped MIC. Less than a year later this same headstamp showed up on “white box” ammo in the US. These had the generic S&B brass bullet, not the GM bullet of the rounds made for Saudi Arabia.

S&B has also, in the last few years, produced ammunition or at least cases for MEN with the MEN headstamp. I think Peter’s point on the Ulm proof house is very significant.

I seriously doubt that the “R” stands for RUAG, but more probably was required by the original customer—whoever he was. I suspect the answer will come from S&B if it comes at all. Still, I have been wrong before as you all know.

In the 1960s and 1970s, DAG, SFM and FN had a mutual agreement to fill orders for each other. None of them produced all calibers all the time. In 9x19, they set up/converted a line when they had a requirement. Occasionally, one of these companies would have a requirement to produce 9x19, but all their lines were busy and they couldn’t fill the requirement, so one of the other companies would produce the ammo with the other companies headstamp. I have two examples of these rounds. One is an FN headstamp from the mid-1960s which is obviously made by Geco/DAG. It had a magnetic bullet and red pa and the headstamp was subtly different. I also have a Geco round obviously made by SFM with the typically brassy color of the case and bullet and the bullet is non-magnetic. Back then I knew someone in FN and asked him about these and he explained the business relationship between the three companies, The new organization with RUAG and CBC owning so many companies, they are much more likely to be able to find one of their own factories that has the capacity to handle these overflow workloads within the company. Still, they may have arrangements to hand off overflow between the two companies.

Just some random thoughts. It is a very interesting headstamp. I hope one of you find out who made it.

Wish I had seen it when it was available. I would loved to have bought a case, or have found at least a cartridge.

Cheers,
Lew


#15

This headstamp has an unusual form of the number “9.” I checked
all my S&B, Geco, MFS, MEN, Thun and CBC headstamps, and found
nothing like it. The only maker that I could recall (I simply can’t check the
9 mm products of every maker represented in my collection) using this
form of “9” much is CCI, but the font doesn’t look like anything I have
for them. Also, the space between the “SB” and the “-R” is a little unusual,
as is the space between the “X” and the “19” in the caliber marking, or one
could say the lack of a space between the “9” and the “X” in that marking.

I have no particular opinion on the meaning of the “R” in the headstamp.

john moss


#16

Lew I think these rounds are still available.

Perhaps the seller can tell us why he says S&B made by RUAG

http://www.sgammo.com/product/sellier-bellot/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-124-grain-fmj-european-government-contract-ammo-mad

Rgds


#17

Dutch, When you look close, it says “notify when back in stock”. I have tried that on a number of their sales on this kind of overrun stuff, but it never comes back in stock!

Maybe this one will be different!

Lew


#18

Lew, check this source:

Regards,

Fede


#19

Thanks Fede!

They had four boxes left so I bought them all. May bring a couple to SLICS.

Cheers,
Lew


#20

Would be any lucky owner of this cartridge so kind and pull out one round, take out the primer by decapping die and show what’s the propellant used, what kind of primer is there and show the bottom part of the bullet…? It may help to say who produced it. Thanks Tomas