Does anyone know what this 9mm case has been used for?
I noticed in a scrap brass bucket.
Nice find! It was modified to fit a .38 caliber revolver.
Thanks Fede - that makes perfect sense and seems so obvious not that you have told me. I’ve edited the title to reflect this.
Very Nice, and thank you for your posting pictures. That looks like an Israeli head stamp? Is It? Thanks Again
Years back, we ground the rims off .45 Auto rim cartridges to use in a 1911. They fed, fired, and extracted. Also smacked .38 acp with a plastic hammer to fit in a Lightning Colt revolver.
I remind this story of Dutch police, shortly after WWII, using “adapted” 9 mm Luger. Maybe some of our Dutch members know more about this.
An engineering problem raised when firing an Auto Rim in a 1911 is that the extractor gets a very serious and unplanned-for flex since there’s no cannelure for it to snap into. Jack
In WW2 Cdn and UK ordnance tried converting .380" Enfield and S&W revolvers to 9mm. This project ceased when the pistol cylinders were found to be bulged. The 9mm ctg produces 50% more pressure than the .380".
The original pic in the post is Australian. I can’t make out the headstamps in Chicken Thief’s post.
There was a slight groove ahead of the rim that allows the extractor to grab a bit.
Isn’t the base (right before the extractor groove) diameter of the 9x19 larger in diameter than 38 special?
Or are we talking about a different .38 caliber here?
We are talking about “ordinary” .38 Smith & Wesson alias .38 Colt New Police which is the chambering of British WW2 military revolvers. A 9 mm Luger fits without problem into the cylinder. But as orange already pointed out, the pressure is dangerously higher.
Jochem, I tried it out.
Unfortunately the cartridge does not fit in the chamber of a .380 Webley Mark IV.
At the base the .380 is 9,7 mm. The 9mm is 9,9mm.
I don’t think you can load this cartridge in the .380 without reworking the chambers
If I remember well, we discussed it before.
Willem, for once my opinion was not based on dry documents, but on playing with the hardware. Many years ago a friend remarked it could be done. And indeed, my check proved him right.
I also have a Webley Mk. IV, proofed in Birmingham like yours. And your message of course let me test it again. Using new Geco 9 mm Hexagon cartridges I had handy, all 6 chambers of my revolver take the cartridges. Without undue finger force, they can be pushed in flush with the rear face of the cylinder.
It looks like a borderline case: some revolvers can take them, others can not.
Edit: It is of course possible that the chambers were reworked. One would need to have the correct gauges.
Dutch and Peelen - I have three of these quetschrand 9 mm cartridges, all German WW2-era cartridges with nothing more than the rims distended. I tried all three in my Smith and Wesson Safety Hammerless top-break revolver, made c.1902. The brass one and one of the steel-case rounds dropped into the chambers perfectly. The other steel round only went in about as far as the one Dutch showed.
I think, like many types of improvised munitions, these are not perfect. Certainly my revolver has never had the chambers altered; there is simply no question of that. I think it depends entirely on the exact original specs of the cartridges converted. It may even be that the forces required to distend the rims slightly bulged the base of some of the cartridges, rendering them useless in the tighter chamber of the .38 S&W/.380 British revolvers.
As an after thought while typing this, I removed the barrel from my Browning GP and tried all three rounds in it, They all dropped into the chamber without problem. Of course, this proves only that they all fit the chamber of that one 9 mm Para-caliber pistol, nothing more or less. You would have to check them in a variety of pistols to come to any positive conclusion. Other than the rims, though, it appears my three cartridges would still be serviceable, save for the mutilated rims, in a 9 mm pistol.
There is no doubt in my mind that these cartridges were “remade” for use in Caliber .38 S&W/.380 British revolvers (and perhaps U.S. Victory Model .38 S&W caliber revolvers, mostly sold to the British, as well).
By the way, I would not be comfortable shooting these in even WWII vintage revolvers, and certainly would never fire one in my old top-break S&W. Some situations require desparate measures, so I can understand why these may have been made.
Roy Dunlap mentions firing 9 m/m Luger cartridges with peened rims in British military revolvers in North Africa, circa 1942 and acknowledged that it was not good practice. He added that the revolvers in question were ammunitionless without this improvisation and to those carrying them this was a reasonable gamble. Jack
I bring my testimony on this type of cartridges,
In the shows that are held NE of Italy, occasionally, there are cartridges so modified, always from countries of the former Yugoslavia…
9 Corto C.A. B-41
9 Glisenti FIOCCHI 1916
Tutte cartucce a basso potenziale (9 Corto e Glisenti)…
I can tell that after the Husky operation my father, who lived in Gela, I use an allied revolver with 9 mm Para cartridges wrapped in paper to keep them firm in the drum.
The result was the explosion of the gun castle fortunately without consequences for him
Things from boys 14 year old… in '43 …
and always sorry for my bad english …
I just checked my Enfield revolver, and 9mm goes easily in the chamber.