9x19mm ID Help


#1

OK, 9x19 auto pistol not my strong suit. Can anyone (Yeah I know you can ;-) help me ID these two rounds?

Round on the left headstamp is 9x19 DAG-77-2. Odd four segment crimp holding in an odd looking plastic(?) bullet. Ok it was made by Dynamit Nobel but what is it?

Round on the right is headstamped IMI 92, looks like a blank but it does not have powder or a primer, does not appear to have ever had a primer. I know who made it but don’t know what it is, a factory error, some kind of dummy, what?

One other 9x19 question:

Round has W.R.A. 9-M-M headstamp, GM bullet, brass case, nickel primer, purple primer seal with a four stab primer crimp. Is this a military contract?

Thanks,
Jason


#2

DAG round is a blank, with a black plastic “bullet” that blows open on firing, presumably to sae on costs of brass. Made in 1977, I’m not sure shether the “2” is a month (February '77) or a lot number. Sorry can’t help on the others.


#3

Your DAG (Dynamit Actiengesellschaft) 9mm blank looks to me, in the picture, as if it has an olive drab-colored bullet. If so, it is specially for the Uzi SMG, which was used by the German Bundeswehr for some time (don’t know if it is still standard in that service or not). It is commercial index number 212 8322. If with a black bullet, it is primarily for the Heckler & Koch MP5, commercial index number 212 8284. I don’t know exactly why two different blanks were necessary. The ones with Olive Drab-colored bullets have a slightly longer over-all cartridge length than the black-bulleted ones, so it may have something to do with feeding, or proper fit to the magazines. I simply don’t know, and have never received a straight answer, even from DAG reps.

The IMI dummy blank could be a legitimate dummy made up for trade show displays, or even a box-maker’s dummy (dummy rounds sent to the box makers to insure proper fit when they manufacture packaging for the rounds). It probably is not a training blank of any kind, although that is not impossible. It is hard to say. Dummy blanks are not unknown - I have 8 or 9 in my collection. I have a blank about identical to yours except the date on it is “91”. You don’t mention whether your round has a flash hole in the primer pocket or not. Mine does not. I have seen the one I have in other collections, so evidently some quantity of them came into the USA. It is not impossible that it is simply a dummy round based on the blank case, but used in place of a dummy ball round for the same purpose. Again, I don’t know for sure.

The WRA 9M-M round was a military contract, probably for a foreign country, during WWII. It is possible that American special ops (OSS, etc.) people used these also, but most of this ammo seemed to go to England or China. Some may have gone to underground partisan units in Europe, also. I have a 50 round box and a 64 round box that were for England (or the United Kingdom in general) and the rounds don’t have the four segment primer crimp. Only my Chinese contract box, printed in the Chinese language, had rounds with this crimp. That is NOT a definitive statement that no one else got rounds with this crimp. It is only an explanation of what I can prove from my own collection.


#4

This type of round was originally produced for Finland before we entered WWII. Sometime after the Winter War ended and WW II started the British took over the contract. At some point in the 1939-1940 timeframe these cases, loaded with a CN truncated cone bullet were bought by the Dutch goverment in exile and sent to their forces in the East Indies with a Dutch military overlabel and sealed in wax. This same round is also found in the blue & white Winchester commercial box with some red lettering. I suspect this was also a military contract load for someone, and may have been part of the Dutch contract that was kept in Britain. There are a few records of this stuff, but clearly some things like the Dutch contract loads aren’t covered in the existing records.


#5

Thanks guy


#6

The “k” and “n” are Hebrew letters that equate to Z and T. Read right to left they stand for Ta’asiyah Zvayit, or Military Industries, Israel. Yes, originally loaded on the heavy side for UZI use.


#7

Ya’ll guys are a wealth of information!

Thanks for confirming they were for the UZI. I just guessed they had to be for it as I could not think of any practical application of tracer ammunition in a hand gun.

Jon C. “The “k” and “n” are Hebrew letters that equate to Z and T.”

I knew that!!! Learned that a couple days ago.
I got a wicked eye roll and a dusgusted look from my girlfriend when I attempted to pronounce a Hebrew word, so she has been trying to educate me :-) k & n were as close as I could get with my keyboard.

Cheers,
Jason