9x19mmP Identification/Marker Not Indelible

Can anyone give tell me what the marker on the bags was suppose to say?I waited to long to write things down, and as you can see, i’m missing information.

Thanks in advance.
John

John - Below are pictures of two different box labels for this ammunition. The bottom box in the picture is the correct box, including lot number, for your cartridge, headstamp 7 070 79. The cases at least are made in Sweden, but from the lot number, may have been loaded in Norway, although I am not at all sure about that. The black stripe on the base indicates “reduced velocity” to match the trajectory, I believe, of a larger projectile, as I believe these are for a sub-caliber unit mounted on an anti-tank weapon, to confirm hit probability before the main weapon is fired. I am not, unfortunately, familiar with the actual weapon used. The red tip indicates a tracer bullet.

I do not have enough knowledge of the Scandinavian languages to translate the boxes item by item. The Crown over HMAK is the symbol of the Hærens Materielkommando (Army Materiel Command) but I am not sure what the “AK” portion of the initials translate to. This is a Danish Command, I believe. If I am correct, we have an interesting box that shows a joint project between Sweden, Norway and Denmark.

Hope this is of some help and interest. One of our Scandinavian Members will probably give you much better information than I can. I only have the empty boxes, although I have a written description of the cartridge, identical to yours, for the bottom box. Not sure if the top box’s cartridges were marked the same or not.

You will see on the top box that the “RA” stands for “A/S Raufoss Ammunisjonsfabrikker,” a Norwegian ammunition factory.

Edited only to add a few words for clarification.

John Moss

1 Like

Using google translate, and using what you said, I looked up M/71, I found this.

But far as I knew, Danmark, Norway or Sweden do not use this artillerypiece…
The ammo (9mm) would be much to small as trainer for such a gun.
Usually the 9mm are used in Trainers (instruktionguns) for AT-Rocketsystems in Skandinavia…

PP

I think M71 is the identification, not the weapon.

Lew

The 9x19mm rounds shown above are subcaliber rounds for shoulder fired AT weapons, yes/no?

From a previous discussion: Green Tip Tracer for 84mm Carl Gustav subcaliber

"The U.S. Military currently fields the AT-4 an 84mm shoulder fired AT weapon, cheaper disposable alternative to the M3 Carl Gustav 84mm shoulder fired AT weapon. The AT-4 system employed by the U.S. includes a 9mm subcaliber trainer, see a discussion on the ammunition here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10543

For examples of Swedish 9mm subcaliber tracers used with the various models of the Swedish Pskott (74mm M72 LAW) trainer systems and various models of the Carl Gustav 84mm “9mm practice weapon 4 for GRG m/48B, m/48C” see: amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo& … ame=Tracer "

Ok, top one says:

50 st HMAK
9 mm ØLSPT M/71
Til 9 mm instv. M/71
LOT 1-RA-86

second one:

Svenske Patroner
Lav hastighed - lysspor
9 mm

This all translates to:

50 pieces, HMAK (mfg/repacker)
9 mm training tracer cartridges M/71
For 9 mm instruction/training weapon M/71
LOT 1-RA-86

Swedish Cartridges
Low velocity - tracer
9 mm

These were most likely what is known in Norwegian service as the NM125, used in training inserts for the M/72 and AT-4 anti tank weapon systems.

Ole

2 Likes

The black stripe on the base indicates “reduced velocity” to match the trajectory, I believe, of a larger projectile, as I believe these are for a sub-caliber unit mounted on an anti-tank weapon, to confirm hit probability before the main weapon is fired. I am not, unfortunately, familiar with the actual weapon used. The red tip indicates a tracer bullet.

John - you are partially correct, let me explain further. They are indeed low-velocity, trajectory matched tracer bullets, but they are used in a training/familiarization system, originally for the “Miniman pansarskott”, later the M/72 LAW, and even later on also AT-4 (known in the US as M136)). These were converted to use a very stubby barrel and a small manually opened breech (rotating breech on the M/72 and AT-4 designs to my knowledge), where the round was slid into the breech block, then the unit is inserted into the rear of the tube and rotated (there were three positions, “open”, “safe”, “fire”). Then the weapon was used like a live AT weapon, aimed with the sights at targets and the cartridge fires, with the approx same trajectory as live 66 mm grenades.

The top box label:


Translates to:

Army materiel command
50 pieces (of)
9 mm live cartridge M/71 w/ reduced load
(for 9 mm instruction/training weapon M/71)
Defense logistics command and inventory list number: 122.22-232
Ammunition lot number: 2-RA-73
Powder lot number: 11-73
Packing date: 9-73
A/S Raufoss Ammunisjonsfabrikker (Raufoss ammunition factories incorp.)

Ole

1 Like

Ole - thanks for that information. I had guessed that they were for a sub-caliber device for a larger weapon, but thought they might be what I would call a “spotter round,” but is seems that was incorrect. Since they are labeled for “9 mm instruction/training weapon M71” it would appear they had only an instructional application, and not a tactical one.

Does anyone have a full name for the initials “HMAK” (surmounted by a Crown), which is a Danish mark. I have other Danish boxes with that logo on them, for ordinary ball, blanks, etc.

John Moss

Hærens materielkommando.

Ole

Ole, Thank you. I should have known that.

John