9x20 Browning Long ID


#1

Gentlemen, I wish to ask is anybody knows the manufacturer and approximately manufacture time frame for this 9x20 Browning Long round?
I’ll be very gratefull if somebody helps me to identify it!




Thank you in advance and excuse me for wasting of your time!

Cheers,

Ivo


#2

Wild guess:

Makina ve Kimya Endustrisi, Kurumu, Turkey

(Actually, I used on of Lew’s lists :) )


#3

The “UB” on the headstamp stands for “Uzun Browning” or in English, Browning Long.


#4

Kurumu means “Corporation” in Turkish…the Full name of the Organisation is “MKEK” (See their Web Site). It has Factories and divisions situated all over Turkey ( Shells, Small Arms, Ammunition, Explosives, Naval, Vehicular, Aircraft etc.)

The 9mm Browning Long has been in Turkish Service (Military and Police) since before WW I; This MKE marked cartridge Cartridge was made since 1952, as this was the date of “Corporatization” of the Government AS.FA (Askeri Fabrikalar, or “Military Factories Administration”), originally founded by Ataturk in 1922-23.
THis 1922-3 re-organisation brought all the former Ottoman Rifle Repair, and Ammo factories and repair depots under centralised control, as part of the new Republican reforms.

Depending on which year it was made (Undated ammo is probably for Police and Civilian sales) it will have either a corrosive or noncorrosive Berdan Primer. Powder will be a disc flake type, similar to contemporaneous German Pistol Powders.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#5

Thank you very much, gentlemen!
I’ve reed that Turkey had purchased quantity of Browning Model 1903 pistols, which were chambered for 9 Browning Long, but I’m surprised that they used this caliber so late (after 1952). Very interesting for me! Is there in Turkish service other weapons in that caliber? It turns out that 9mm Browning Long (9mm x 20 Cartridge, Long) is presented in contemporary MKE catalog of small arms ammunition. Unfortunately they don’t show any cartridge parameter - neither bullet weigth, nor its velocity. Is there typical values for these parameters?

Cheers,

Ivo


#6

Bullet weights for the Browning 9mm Long cartridge generally run from 7 grams (108 grains)
to 7.52 grams (116 grains). “Center Fire Metric Pistol and Revolver Cartridges,” by Henry P. White and Burton D. Munhall (1948) shows, on page 44, an instrumental velocity at 15 feet of 1029 fps, tested by H.P. White Co., with Hirtenberg ammunition). The Hirtenberg ammunition was probably that with the four-star (* * * *) headstamp, although that is just a guess.

Hope this helps a little. The only ones I know that have made this cartridge in recent years is MKE and NAMMO Vanäsverken of Sweden (Using the “CG” Carl Gustavs headstamp). It has been cataloged continuosly by Prvi Partizan in Serbia for years, right up to this year, but I don’t know a single person who has one in his collection or who has ever even seen a round. It may be that they have the ability to make it, and will for an order of sufficient quantity, but have not done so yet due to a lack of orders. However, one would think that after so many years, if that was the case, they would have simply dropped it from their line.

Hope this helps a bit.


#7

Here you have some information about modern MKE production for this cartridge:

Cartridge Length: 27.5 + 0.5 mm
Cartridge Weight: ~ 11.2 g
V10 ​​(10 m): 340 ± 10 m / s
Average Pressure: max. 2000 Kg / cm 2
Dispersion: max. 9 cm (30 mde)
Bullet Extraction Force: min. 15 Kgf
Case Length: 19.9 + 0.30 mm
Bullet Type: FMJ, Brass and Lead Antimony Alloy
Bullet Weight: 7.14 ± 0.1 g
Case Material: Brass (CuZn30)
Capsule: 9 mm capsule, Boxer
Gunpowder: Ball Powder
Packing: 50 Pcs Plastic Separator Cartridges 1 and Cardboard box, 12 Cardboard Box 1 PVC bag, a wooden chest, 5 PVC Bags, 30 Wooden Boxes 1 Pallet (Total 90000 Cartridges)


#8

Fede - Good information, as we have come to expect from you. I see the bullet weight and MV fall into the
specifications given by White & Munhall. Considering when their books were written, they are still, to this day,
very useful.

I like the 9 mm Browning Long very much, as a collector. In actuality, the 9 mm Makarov cartridge pretty much duplicates its “real world” ballistics in a smaller pistol package. But there are a lot of nice headstamps in it, and some “fun” loadings. Thru the good offices of a dear friend and contributor to this Forum, I got a “purple-striped” Kynoch 9 mm Long proof load. I knew they had to exist, since England made two different versions of Webley Pistol, c. 1909 initially. I couldn’t prove it though, and not sure whether or not I even mentioned the possibility of it in my two-part article in IAA Journal some years ago.

I wish I could get a definitive answer from Prvi Partizan about their production, or lack thereof, of this caliber. Like with most ammunition companies, even those that solicit email inquiries on their websites, I never got the courtesy of a reply.


#9

John, this is a page from Webley & Scott Limited catalog No. 30. Note Muzzle velocity is shown as 1030 fps. Your cartridge was probably used to proof test this pistol.

You may want to consider the possibility of a south african variation too!!!


#10

Fede - that is, of course, the South Afrcan contract version of the Webley 9 mm Long pistol. The earlier commercial one had the front of the frame and slide squarer in profile, and did not have the safety lever on the slide, as I recall. I had both versions in my auto pistol collection years ago, along with a Husqvarna 9 mm Long pistol (regretably a reconversion back to 9 mm Long from the ghastly conversion done in the US to most of them, making them the biggest and least reliable .380 auto pistol in the world. A friend of mine in Sweden got me a new barrel, but we could do nothing about the amateurish and stupid altering of the front sigt. I also had a very nice, and fairly scarce, Turkish contract FN Model 1903 in that caliber. It was the only one I shot. It performed about as well as most military pistols. I only could get, at that time, a few rounds to shoot from it.

One of the coolest pistols in that caliber was the Le Française, but while I could have bought several .25 autos of that make, I never could find, or probably afford in those days, one of the 9 mm Long versions.

I have one other proof load, from Belgium. It is a round with “F N *” headstamp overstamped on the head with the letters “ELG,” and was a proof load made either especially for, or at, the Liège Proof House. “ELG” supposed stands for “Èpreuve Liège,” but I have always wonder if the “LG” part really stands for “Liège.” On the headstamp, which is a 3 x 120° format, the L & G are far apart, not at all like an abbreviation for Liège should be. Even on the Liège proof mark, the “LG” is often (not always) show as “L•G” wioth a dot between the two letters, not after them.


#11

Fede, John, thank you very much for this invaluable for me information!

Take care and have fun!

Ivo