9x23 Steyr ID of time period


#1

Cany anybody provide a solid ID of the time frame this 9x23 Steyr (by Povazske Strojarne in Czechoslovakia - today Slovak Republic) was made in?
The main question is:
Was it made before WWII or after 1945?


#2

Hi Alex, the “Z” was used in headstamps by Československá Zbrojovka a. s., Brno since July 1st, 1934. This headstamp continued to be used by Waffenwerke Brünn A.G., Werk Považská Bystrica during the war. After the war, the “Z” headstamp was briefly used until it was replaced by “PS”. I’m not sure the exact date of this change but you can find a .380 Auto headstamped 19 / Z / 46 / XIII / and a 9 mm Parabellum headstamped 19 / PS / 46 / XI /. This commercial headstamp was produced before 1938-39 but if it was again used after the war it must have been for a very short period (maybe this is the cartridge listed by KOVO in 1949 or maybe there is an unreported production by PS). There is also a headstamp without the six pointed stars and variations in the primer annulus color (none, black, bright green) and bullet jacket material.

You may want to check this earlier thread discussing this subject: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12838&hilit=fede+zbrojovka+1934&start=0

I should make a correction about my statement. The “Z inside four concentric circles” (rifled barrel bore) logo is actually not related to the “Z” headstamp and was first used by CZ Brno on July 29, 1925. Later, on June 19, 1935 this same logo was slightly modified in diameter. Below you can see the difference between 1925 and 1935 logos:

This could be an explanation to Brad’s question shown below or maybe the “M” cases were loaded many years after they were made.

Cheers,

Fede


#3

Fede, thanks!

The M inside an open circle was suspected to be in use from ~1929-1934 when Brno came into the game and replaced the symbol with it’s “Z”.

The name of the factory in 1947 was “Povazske Strojarne, Narodny Podnik, Povazska Bystrica” and they still used the hs “Z” there (I know that from a different box and different caliber).
The confusing thing is that there are also 1946 head stamps on 7.9 with the “PS” .
Other know early PS are:
9x19:
46 Z 14 9mmP
19 PS 47 IV

  • 12 48 PS
    Z * 6 48
  • 4 49 PS

9x17 Br./Kurz (any “PS” observed?):
Z 14 9mmK 46

7.9x57:
PS 46 XI 19
Z * 4 47
Z * 4 48
PS * - 3 48
PS * - 3 49

7.62x25 (any “Z” observed?):
PS * 12 48
PS * 2 49

7.65 Br.:
Z I * I 7,65 I * I (no year)
PS I * I 7,65 I 51 I
PS I * I 7,65 I 52 I

I wonder why “Z” and “PS” were used in parallel but assume we have to live with this fact.

So the question remains: when was that 9x23 made?
Anybody out there who has a box of these?


#4

Alex, sorry, I get confused with the post war “Z” and “PS” headstamps use, they are not related. The “Z” was used on military ammunition by ZB, Závod Vlašim since October 28, 1945 until July 26, 1949, and the “PS” was used by PS, Považská Bystrica since 1946 (don’t know the exact date but it is known in early 1946 headstamps).

Edit: “on military ammunition” added.


#5

Does “M” stand for “Moravia”?


#6

Vlad, I’m not sure if this is confirmed by a document but the “M” has been reported to stand for “Muniční” (Ammunition). The full name of the factory was “Československé muniční a kovodělné závody a. s., Bratislava”.

Alex, the “M” headstamp insde an open circle was also used in 1935. The “Z” labeled empty packet posted by JFL can be found full of 8 x 50 R M. 93 cartridges headstamped 35 / lion / VI / M /. Also, there are 7,9x57 cartridges headstamped 19 / M / 35 / XII.


#7

Alex, a post-war use of the “Z” headstamp in commercial cartridges can’t be denied because there are boxes full of “Z” headstamped cartridges that have the “Z” logo and also a label by PS závod Považská Bystrica added in the back. I wonder if these “Z” commercial cases were in fact made after the war or they are a pre-war production loaded/repacked later. The different headstamp styles and primer annulus colors may have something to do with this.


#8

In the book by Smatana on the factory the 9 mm Steyr is not listed among the cartridges produced after 1992. But I assume EOD knows that already.

To me it seems that the M within the circle was used on cartridges manufactured at the old Roth factory at Bratislava and was discontinued with the move to Pov. Bystrica.

M meaning Moravia is in my view not very probable, because Bratislava as well as Pov. Bystrica are in Slovakia. My guess is municke for ammunition factory just as Z actually stands for zbrojovka (arms factory).

Someone able to read Slovak on this forum?


#9

Alex, I forgot to mention that the KOVO catalog of 1949 listing products by PS závod Považská Bystrica does not mention or illustrate the “Z” brand in any form. However, the 9 mm Steyr cartridge is included, which means that there must be a cartridge of this caliber by PS. Considering that a 9 mm Steyr cartridge headstamped “PS” has not been reported by collectors, I guess that this would be a PS loaded and/or repacked “Z” headstamped cartridge.


#10

The factory got the name Povazske Strojarne on 7th March 1946, it seems and was separated from Zbrojovka Brno. So this would be the time the civilian headstamp on newly manufactured cases was changed from Z to PS.


#11

JPeelen, you are right, PS was created in March 7, 1946 with retroactive effect from 1 January 1946. However, the change from “Z” to “PS” would have been made just in paper because there are PS boxes filled with “Z” rounds. Here is a picture of two 9 mm Steyr boxes, the one at left was filled with cartridges headstamped Z 9S and the one at right with cartridges headstamped Z * 9S *.

Another questions would be: Is it confirmed that the “Z” headstamps with “stars” were used before the war? Or maybe is it as simple as “no stars” pre-war" and “with stars” post-war?


#12

Fede, great photo!
So the “Z * 9S *” is post war by what we see on the photo.


#13

Alex, well, that’s possible but there wasn’t a detailed description of the rounds found inside as to their primer annulus color. These could be the ones with a bright green primer annulus and 4.5 mm “T3” non-corrosive primer.


#14

Ah, and I (miss)understood that the hs was in the box on the right.


#15

Alex, sorry if I didn’t explain myself right, the box on the right was filled with cartridges headstamped Z * 9S *; what I don’t know is if they had a primer annulus colored black, green or no color at all.


#16

I am not into the PAs for the moment. What would the color tell us?


#17

A green sealant and GM primer cup would indicate a 4.5 mm “T3” non-corrosive primer. This size for pistol, revolver and .22 Hornet/Vierling cartridges was not marked with the “T3” monogram.

Also, there are commercial “Z” cartridges with red, black and no primer sealant, but I don’t know if they have any meaning.


#18

Fede, the book by Smatana shows a lot of Z headstamps with and without the stars. These are drawings, not photographs.

For example 9 mm Steyr:
Z 9S
Z * 9S * (with segmentation lines)
PS * 9S * (with segmentation lines)
[the asterisks here stand for the stars; EOD’s variant without segmentation is not shown]

or 7.63 Mauser:
Z 7.63
Z * 7.63 *
Z * 7.63 * (with segmentation lines)
PS * 7.63 * (with segmentation lines)


#19

JPeelen, thanks you very much for the information, I didn’t know there was a 9 mm Steyr headstamped PS.


#20

Could somebody please give me a time frame from this 7,92 Mauser?

Do not believe it is 1943