9x56mm Mannlicher "W.R.A. Co. 9m/m"

A bit of an imposter headstamp. I expected it to be 9x19mm when looking at the headstamp. Would this be an old pre-WWII hunting calibre? I’ll post daylight body photo tomorrow.
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The Mannlicher Schoenauer was made in 6.5mm, 8mm (M-1908), 9mm (M1910?), & 9.5mm (M-1910 & the 9.5 was also known as the .375 N.E. Rimless).
The 6.5 was a Model 1903 & the model numbers related to the caliber / case type change / offering.
These rifles had a 3 rnd. rotary magazine and the full length stock variations with the butter knife bolt-lift handle are considered by many to be the most beautiful rifles ever made.
K.J. Bell, I believe used to kill elephants with the M-1903 in 6.5mm cal.

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As some of you will know, this ‘generic’ “9 M/M” hs indicates that this cartridge could be used as either 9x56 MS or 9x57 Mauser. In reality there is really very little difference between the 9x56 MS case and the 9x57 Mauser (M36). Variations in case dimensions of headstamped examples show a clear overlap of case dimensions. The shoulder position and angle (38° for the 8x56, 38.15° for the 9x57) are very similar and the case lengths of both types vary between 56-57mm. In particular, the Kynoch headstamped examples appear to be interchanged. It is the same for the 8x56 MS and 8mm Mauser

So Winchester (and Rem-UMC) produced this cartridge and used the title “Mauser or Mannlicher” designation for both 8 & 9mm - see below:

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REM-UMC also used the same Generic 9mm hs and “dual caliber” boxes :
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They must have done this for some time but I don’t know how successful this was as eventually they just described them as “Mauser” and the HS changed to include “Mauser” as well.

Maybe someone has more details ?

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Thanks Brad
I sort of thought they were dual use but couldn’t recall seeing those boxes.
Western had a warning on the 8x56 MS boxes.


another style warning

ps do you have a typo in your next to last line? 8mm"Mauser"

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Actually, as pertains to 9 mm Luger, neither the Winchester nor the Remington headstamps are “Generic.” There was no W.R.A.CO. or REM-UMC heastamps on 9 mm Luger rounds that had only the numeric calibers designation, with the word “LUGER” following it. There was a W.R.A. 9M-M headstamp that was primarily a military contract headstamp made during WWII, and Perhaps slight after. Some commercial loads used this headstamp as well. However, note, it was simply W.R.A. or WRA (it appears both ways), without the “CO” behind it.

A small point, but an important one, so people don’t start looking for two 9 mm Luger headstamps that almost certainly do not exist.

In the sense of 9 mm Mannlicher Schönauer and 9 mm Mauser (Rifle), you could call it a generic headstamp.

John Moss

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I did John… and thanks for your approval !

WBD - I wasn’t referring to your perfectly good answer, but rather to the question itself, which seem to imply that headstamp shown initially was also a 9 mm Luger headstamp.

Nobody needs my “approval” for anything.

John

Brad, Remington did differentiated the 9x56 M-S from the 9x57 Mauser in catalogs and boxes, but I don’t know how to recognize their differences. Below you can see two examples of labels from the “Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co.” era (pre incorporation). They unified the designation in the 1920’s, except for export price lists, that continued listing the M-S and Mauser as separate calibers until it was discontinued.

Regards,

Fede

Any comment about the possible 8mm typo ?

Fede, thanks for your comments.

They may have originally differentiated the two in catalogs & boxes but they do appear as if they are the same cartridge in the catalogs -same 9m/m hs, loads etc. Here from the 1911/12:

I suspect they were the same cartridge - very bad practice to sell two very similar cartridges with the same hs ? Anyway, as you say they combined the descriptions later (as per my box above) before finishing production in WW2.

They obviously had issues with the 8mm MS vs Mauser as this box and discussion from Pete de Coux show:

Pete, I fixed the typo (removed “8mm”) quite a while ago (I believe). Thanks for pointing it out