A challenge on the JFK assassination


#1

Hello cartridge collectors and gun experts,

I am seeking proof that these cartridges (see headstamps) could have been manufactured in or before 1963

manuscriptservice.com/Headst … ases01.jpg

These cartridges were found in Dealey Plaza, in 1987 by John Rademacher, some 3 inches in the ground. The left one has a dent in it, which was verified to be a human teethmark.

In 1994, James Files, after he was tracked down by a private investigator, made a confession that he had fired the fatal headshot from behind the picket fence and bit down on the casing nd left it on a sidebar of the picket fence.

Alan Eaglesham , a persistent discreditor of James Files’ story has just written an article that alleges the headstamp proves it was manufactured after 1970.

I know this is bull, but appreciate your help in disproving the allegation.

More to the story here:

jfkmurdersolved.com/filestruth.htm

So the question is: Was the short dash (or better a dot) between the R - P on the headstamp, in use in the 1960’s?

Here are some pictures of headstamps I was told are from that timeframe.

jfkmurdersolved.com/images/headstamps1963.jpg

I was also told that both the dash and dot headstamps were printed in that era, and that there was more than one company making ammunition for Remington. A conglomerate.

There’s more discussion on this issue on my forum:

jfkmurdersolved.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=484

Thanks in advance for your help. I am not asking anyone to believe James Files. Just for proof that the cartridges could have been manufactured in or before 1963.

Wim Dankbaar


#2

WARNING: ANY REPLY THAT GOES BEYOND THE VERY NARROW SCOPE OF ADDRESSING THE DATE OF MANUFACTURE OF THE CARTRIDGE CASE SHOWN IN THE PHOTO WILL BE DELETED!!!

WEBMASTER


#3

INTERESTING


#4

NO, absolutly not. The short dash was not employed until after 1970 (based on 50+ years of collecting) and the dot was not used until cartridge production began in Lonoke, Arkansas and was used exclusively to identify production at that facility. ONLY the long dash was used before 1970.


#5

Nice, BUT, - proof ?


#6

Could you please elaborate on your statement with some corroboration?

Thanks in advance,

Wim


#7

Much of what is “KNOWN” in any collecting field is “legend”. Ron is likely correct and I believe him BUT PROVING such information ,which is what I gather that you are after, is very difficult. An IAA long time member, George Kass, has created a business which attempts to provide just such support to law enforcement. I suggest that you contact him at forammo@aol.com for his suggestions.


#8

Short of Remington providing more records from their official files there is no way to “PROVE” the facts. However, the factory drawing shown in the manuscript referenced in another thread on this subject clearly shows that the “Short” dash was a change made on 12-30-70 which coincides with the aproximate date when they began to show up in the market place.

Go to the following to view this Remington drawing for the .222 Rem. headstamp bunter.

manuscriptservice.com/Headstamp

In short, the long dash – 0.04 inches in length – was used on .222 cartridge headstamps throughout the 1960s. The dash was shortened to 0.015 inches in 1970.

As for the dot headstamps, none were ever seen before the move of production to Lonoke, AR. While, again, we can not “PROVE” this headstamps indicates only Lonoke production, it is damn funny none were ever reported or seen before this move.


#9

Ron,

Do you have remington cartidges from before 1970?

Wim


#10

[quote=“Ron Merchant”]Short of Remington providing more records from their official files there is no way to “PROVE” the facts. However, the factory drawing shown in the manuscript referenced in another thread on this subject clearly shows that the “Short” dash was a change made on 12-30-70 which coincides with the aproximate date when they began to show up in the market place.

Go to the following to view this Remington drawing for the .222 Rem. headstamp bunter.

manuscriptservice.com/Headstamp

In short, the long dash – 0.04 inches in length – was used on .222 cartridge headstamps throughout the 1960s. The dash was shortened to 0.015 inches in 1970.

As for the dot headstamps, none were ever seen before the move of production to Lonoke, AR. While, again, we can not “PROVE” this headstamps indicates only Lonoke production, it is damn funny none were ever reported or seen before this move.[/quote]

As I recall, you were instrumental in setting up this business with George Kass and worked with him for several years. These fellows are fighting for their “on line reputations” and will need legal standards “PROOF” to settle this down. Since this is commercial ammo I do not look too far into it. However I do know that there exist boxes of this ammo so headstamped as noted, variously, AND date coded as well on the box. You folks who collect commercial ammo and boxes should be able to answer this question.

Promoting this site and bringing on more users helps build a larger universe of folks who have ammunition specimens to answer such questions FROM EXISTING SPECIMENS.

The boxes of ammo which answer these questions are sitting on dealers and collectors shelves right now.


#11

Wim–Yes, I have many pre-1970 Remington cartridges. I started collecting cartridges in 1958. 100% of all my “R-P” cartridges acquired BEFOR 1970 have the “Long” dash.


#12

Ron,

See my last few entries here:

jfkmurdersolved.com/phpBB2/viewt … =4224#4224

Eaglesham is wrong, and it appears you are jumping the gun, just because you don’t happen to have short dash (dot) pre 1970 cartridges. By the way, the log dash was also used after 1970 just as the short dash was before 1970. A freind of mine has a long dash stamp of 2003.

cartwin.nl/KnapNL.html

This is his website.

cartwin.nl/

Wim


#13

Wim–Nobody has said the long dash was not used after 1970. It was on certain calibers. But, the short dash was not used before 1970.

I am on Eaglesham’s side in this. I happen to beleive he has the facts correct and you do not.

So, with that statment, I will bow out of this argument.


#14

Ron, I normally would not get involved in this old rehash of conspiracy theories.I won’t give my opinion of them here for fear of being censored. Regarding the various “RP” headstamps, I agree with you. As you know, I was the manager of one of the largest gun shops in the Western United States. We had a very rapid turnover in ammunition - not much old stock at any given time except in very unpopular calibers. As a cartridge collector, I used to open boxes and look at headstamps of virtually every shipment of ammunition that came in our store. My notes indicate that I got the R - P (short dash), R P (no dash), and . R P . (dots) headstamps all in 1972. Everything I had in my auto pistol cartridge collection before that was R-P (long dash). This doesn’t mean they couldn’t have been made before 1972, as it takes a little time for rounds to get into distribution from the factory, thru the jobber, to the retail store. However, it doesn’t take ten years. The notion these headstamps were made around the time of the Kennedy assassination is, in my opinion, just plain silly, considering when they appeared on the general, retail market and from various dated factory drawings. I, too, now bow out of this very old, endless argument. One more thing - people interested in a scholarly study of this event should read the International Wound Ballistics Association “Wound Ballistics Review,” Volume 2, Number 2, 1995.


#15

Mr Dankbaar,

I have collected 9mm Luger ammunition since the mid-1950s, and only encountered the long dash on R-P 9mmP ammunition before the early 1970s, according to my notes. John Moss is correct. What you accept as proof is of course your choice. You asked the question and got considtant answers from two experts (Ron and John).

I followed your links and the 1942 30-06 headstamps you use for proof are military headstamps and the dot is the result of military specs and has NOTHING to do with the short or long dash used on commercial headstamps.

The 30-06 commerical headstamp you illustrate does have a short dash, but you offer no substantiation on it’s date or location of manufacture that I saw. Members of this forum would interested in the ammunition that supports your statements on this item.

You have received the best insights available from people who have been studying cartridges for decades. It is your choice how you use the information.

Lew


#16

back to the top


#17

[color=red]NOTICE++++++NOTICE++++++NOTICE[/color]

This thread was restored ONLY for the information it contains concerning the “Long Dash” & “Short Dash” R-P headstamps. ANY new comments concerning the JFK conspiracy will be deleated!!!


#18

Everything you need to know about the ammunition involved is in the COMPLETE WARREN REPORT - not the conclusion sold to the public. The COMPLETE is available at most public libraries.