A real pre-israeli dummy

Good points all. I do find DOCs comments about the Boxer primer and the ring crimp interesting. I have sold most of my prestatehood Israeli 9mms to Woodin Lab over the years and only have about a dozen or so left. All of these with the various headstamps have the ring crimp. Do you folks who collect 9mms find that ring primer crimp on Winchester ammo of the era?

No doubt there was a mixture of machinery. Mine had 3 types of ogives which imply at lease 3 sets of machine tools. Jon Cohen’s lot ,pictured above, show other crimps as well. I do not know how long a crimper lasts - does anyone ? I have previously asked how long a headstamp bunter lasts with no answer yet.

I think that both the primer type and crimp are very important to the story. It looks that both imply against central European components at the time. If they used Boxer primers they were not likely getting them from Europe at the time.

Primer pocketing is an important step in the draw sequence.

Jon Cohen put up some images of these 9mms one of which showed a triangle crimp. I don’t see it here now.

I agree completely that the primer pocket is an important part of the process, but I would think that it might be one of the easier things to change (from Berdan to Boxer) in the process. The flash holes are usually drilled or punched, so that would be easy to change, and I suspect that however the anvil in the case is formed in a Berdan-type case, it would not be too difficult to eliminate. It shouldn’t be too hard to change tooling to accomodate a slightly different diameter primer pocket either. I don’t really know this, I will admit, but I have some idea about how cases are formed from the visit to Bell’s factory in Michigan, where we spent the whole afternoon with one of the egineers with no one else in the plant but him, myself and one other collector. I also learned what a good engineer coupled with a good machinist could do! Needless to say, I asked a thousand questions - probably drove the poor guy to drink! I also visited FN and saw some pretty modern, highly automated equipment, but it was for 5.56 x 45mm (.223) production. As I recqll, that stuff was made by Fritz Werner Co. specificaqlly for FN. There wasn’t really anyone around to ask very technical questions of.

I have 19 specimens of Israeli 9mm ball made before 1949, starting with unheadstamped specimens with no primer seal, green primer seal, and white primer seal. I could not see any appreciable difference in bullet ogives, except for one with a slightly flattened tip, probably due to some resistence to seating I would think, since the round appears to have never been through a weapon (nt magazine lip scratches on the case, feed ramp marks on the bullet, etc.). The primer crimps are all circular except for one “A E 8” headstamped round, which never had a circular crimp, but has three large triangular crimps. This is not a scarce variant. I have seen it often. However, the circular crimps differ somewhat from round to round, with some with a wider crimp than others, and many badly off-center. We have also observed Winchester circular crimps hit off-center. this is one of the reasons that we believe there may have been a mixture of machinery at this clandestine factory. The Israeli accounts of Polish machinery simply cannot be dismissed out of hand, but some of the features would indicate American production methods, at the least, and probably American machinery as well.

I have Winchester cartridges of the WWII era (I have no military rounds that I can tie to the immediate post-war period. It was not an American military round at that time) and most have a circular primer crimp, but I have one without primer crimp made for the Dutch East Indies and specimens made for China with a four-stab primer crimp.

My understanding is that they made the primers at the Kibbutzim Hill factory. I don’t recall where, but I was recently involved in a discussion of that exact subject, where I hypothesized that the primers were smuggled from the United States, and that is why they chose to make the cases Boxer. I actually believed for a long time that the cases were made in the U.S. and only loaded in Israel, but I know now that is wrong I was told flatly that I was wrong, and that the primers were made clandestinely in Israel as well as the cases, powder and bullets. I don’t know the truth of either theory. There is still plenty to be learned about this ammo. Unfortunately, I had poor response (actually “no response” would be more accurate) to letters to Israel - IMI primarily, I wrote many years ago asking questions about the production of this ammunition for an article that I never wrote, since I couldn’t obtain factual information from an indisputable source. It was at a time when a lot of the ammo came into this country and I went from few Israeli 9mms to a fairly extensive selection almost overnight.

I do not collect 9mms but looking at what Lew has posted and others as well much of it is NOT primer crimped. Was all this crimping due to the use of these in SMGs of the era whereas now the 9mm is mostly used in pistols? Next visit to Woodin Lab take a look at the ogive variations.

The story of this remarkable ammo production is certainly far from closed. Maybe Jon will visit again and find out more.

I went through my pics and found a few of machines in the underground factory, none showing any markings. One of you might be able to divine something and I will try to scan and post them. I did have one of a machine displayed above ground, but I don’t know if it was from the Institute or was discarded later by IMI and brought to the museum. On its side there is a lever, a wheel, and some kind of hopper on top. There is a MANURHIN plaque on the side. I would guess it came along with French weapons in the 1950s and 60s.
I reread some of the histories from the Museum and found a bit of info:
-2 million rounds were produced.
-In 1938, machines for the production of bullets were bought in Poland, overhauled and shipped, but unloaded in Beirut, finally arriving in Israel in 1941. Other machines, special ovens, and strips of copper plate were purchased in England and smuggled to Israel.

CSAEOD, Am guessing in the the quotes you posted “bullets” must be the newsmedia lingo for ammunition. Don’t think the underground could have done much damage with bullets even in a slingshot!

I think the term “bullets” was used more in my postings, and was part of quotes from published sources. I mentioned in one of my postings that most reading this thread would already realize that “bullets” in this case meant ammunition. Most people not really involved with firearms at all don’t know a bullet from a cartridge, and ammunition is often referred to as “bullets” or other erroneous terms in the popular press.

It seems reasonable to assume that most writers mean “bullets” to refer to ammunition in general unless they are writing about the field of gun or ammunition technology in detail . This is certainly NOT what we mean here. Here a bullet goes in or out of a cartridge and a cartridge does not go into a printer.

[quote=“Jon C.”]I went through my pics and found a few of machines in the underground factory, none showing any markings. One of you might be able to devine something and I will try to scan and post them. I did have one of a machine displayed above ground, but I don’t know if it was from the Institute or was discarded later by IMI and brought to the museum. On its side there is a lever, a wheel, and some kind of hopper on top. There is a MANURHIN plaque on the side. I would guess it came along with French weapons in the 1950s and 60s.
I reread some of the histories from the Museum and found a bit of info:
-2 million rounds were produced.
-In 1938, machines for the production of bullets were bought in Poland, overhauled and shipped, but unloaded in Beirut, finally arriving in Israel in 1941. Other machines, special ovens, and strips of copper plate were purchased in England and smuggled to Israel.[/quote]

What happened to the other fine pictures of 9mm Israeli ammo which you put up here?

As far as I can see in this thread the original Israeli sources don’t say the tooling imported from Poland was in fact made there. Is it not in fact possible the tooling originated outside Poland in the first place? JG

Anything is possible. I am not even sure whether or not Poland made the tooling for their own ammunition. Companies like Manurhin, of France, and Fritz Werner, of Germany, and others have provided “ammunition factories” to dozens of countries over the years. I don’t know who made the machinery at Kibbutzim Hill near Rehovot, in Israel, and I am not sure anyone else does except the Israelis. It will probably have to wait until someone active in cartridge collecting and distributing of information he has gathered visits the Ayalon Institute Museum. Everything so far is conjecture or based on the scant information in Israeli news sources and other published books. I am sure if someone wanted to spend a lot of time in Israel pursuing it, that a book could be written not only on Israeli ammo production in total, but a complete book simply on the Ayalon clandestine factory.

I doubt that anyone knows the facts at this late date. My experience with museum caretakers is that have very little real information.

First class machine tool producers were in countries all around Poland at the time and IN Poland as well. Not likely that they would IMPORT Boxer case tools or Winchester ring crimp dies for any reason. If you look at their ammo of the time you will see that they were making plenty of their own ammo with their typical machinery - all Berdan primed.

“I am sure if someone wanted to spend a lot of time in Israel pursuing it, that a book could be written not only on Israeli ammo production in total, but a complete book simply on the Ayalon clandestine factory.” - John Moss.

I have the book, John, how’s your Hebrew?

Jon - you should never have told me that. Type a translation of all of the text into word, scan all of the pictures, save them, and insert them into the appropriate spots in the translation, print it out and have a copy on my desk by 9:00 O’Clock Monday Morning, or you will have to stay after school!

You might translate that as a service to the community.

“Jon - you should never have told me that. Type a translation of all of the text into word, scan all of the pictures, save them, and insert them into the appropriate spots in the translation, print it out and have a copy on my desk by 9:00 O’Clock Monday Morning, or you will have to stay after school!”

I’ll get right on that! Do you have a specific questions, John? Most of it is on the personalities involved, and the youth group that was “Shanghai-ed” to run the factory. Also a lot about the camoflaging as a laundry and bakery. I think I’ve already posted most of the relevant cartridge material, but I’ll look through again.

What happened to all the JonC photos ?