A whole mess of random rimfires


#1

Here is my collection of old rimfire rounds. Feel free to post as to what you guys think they are. Most don’t have any kind of headstamps. A few have a “U” and that’s it


#2

The three on the right, and #13 from the right are Center Fire, Benet inside primed. Cal .45 (45-70) blanks or gallery, and Cal .45 Revolver, S&W length.

Measuring the bullet diameter of the others would be a good hint as to what they are. Otherwise we’d just be guessing.

Ray


#3

Thanks Ray. I will get some dimensions out there. Here are some closer pics. Starting with the already (AWESOMELY IDENTIFIED) WISE artillery primer.

The next question is…Is there a market for this stuff? I was thinking of making some bullet boards to use in my NRA classes (Good examples of centerfire and rimfire outside of the normal stuff) but don’t think I need 4 or 5 of each kind.

Please don’t take my question the wrong way though, my intention is NOT to be a troll who posts in a few random threads and then tries to hock his stuff and disappear. I have been a member of a home-build gun forum for a long time and can’t stand those types of folks.

(To give you all some background into my collection; The grandfather of one of my best friends passed recently, and he being an LEO was made head of the estate. His grandpa was in the Army and stationed at Aberdeen proving grounds for his entire military career. He amassed a sizable collection of firearms and ammunition is his years of collecting. He was really big into wildcatting in the 60s. My buddy parted with a large portion of the material there was enough 5 gallon buckets of spent brass that he was given 5000 9X19s in trade from a local dealer… Well, he sent me all the one offs/obscure/antique rounds to basically just not have to deal with them. Now I have the interesting task of trying to identify all of them.)


#4

Are you in the Aberdeen area? If so, you can bring a few of those buckets up to the Morgantwon, PA cartridge show in August.

From the right, #4 is a leaky .41 Swiss, and #13 appears to be an early Benet-primed .45 Long Colt.


#5

Jon

You caught my mistake. I said #13 was a S&W length .45, but on second look I think you’re right. It the longer Cal .45 Revolver cartridge. But be careful, Ron is going to jump on you for calling it a Long Colt.

Ray


#6

Ray: I think you were right the first time. It looks like an S & W to me. Jack


#7

So, I was wrong to think I was wrong. ;-) Either way, I got it covered.

Ray


#8

Ray, I’m sure you were right, I didn’t read your whole post. I just went with what I thought I know. As I was typing “Long Colt” I was asking myself if that was the phrase that gets all the experts upset. Oh well, I guess it is.
sorry.


#9

Either Ron is napping, or he has given up (which is what I did when it comes to the Cal .30 (30-06).


#10

Ray and Jonnyc–I have not given up the fight, but I think I am jousting at windmills. And, Ray, if you had not mentioned it first, I would have jumped on Johnnyc.

Jonnyc–You said “As I was typing “Long Colt” I was asking myself if that was the phrase that gets all the experts upset.” I think I am the only “Expert” who seems to care, but, as I have said many times, there is no such round as a .45 LONG Colt. There is only .45 Colt and .45 Schofield length Colt. Or to be more precise, the shorter Benet primed round is a .45 Revolver, Ball (S & W Schofield Length). The .45 Colt has a 1.26 inch case, while the .45 S & W Schofield case is 1.10 inches.

BTW, it is a Schofield length Benet primed round in the picture.


#11

Ok, just to clarify it for me…are there .38 Long and Short Colt cartridges?


#12

Johnnyc–Yes, there are .38 Long and Short Colt cartridges, but there is NO .45 SHORT Colt, so no need to call the .45 Colt a .45 LONG Colt. Until the Cowboy Shooting craze of the last few years, no company used the term .45 Long Colt in their catalogs, on their boxes or as a headstamp.


#13

We are getting far OT, but until Kevlar gets back to us with some dimensions, we can chat.

Unlike Ron, I have given up my quest to convince others that proper nomenclature is good and that it does help in identifying cartridges. Ron calls it “jousting with windmills” but I call it “Damned if I’m right, damned if I’m wrong.”

For a long time I would remind others that a 7.62MM NATO is NOT a .308 Winchester, and vice-versa. I would be taken to task and told that I didn’t know what I was talking about and to butt out unless I had something important to say. But, sometime later someone would ask, "Is it OK to shoot 7.62MM NATO in a .308 W rifle. I would answer, “Of course it’s OK. They are the same cartridge.” Then I would get jumped on and berated, told that I didn’t know what I was talking about and to butt out unless I had something important to say.

Damned if I’m right - damned if I’m wrong!

Ray


#14

I bought my first Colt Single Action Army Revolver in the mid-1960s or early 1970s (I still have it) before Cowboy Action Shooting came along. I can tell you that among many, “.45 Long Colt” was a common term for the cartridge, whether right or wrong. My understanding was that it developed because of confusion between the
military versions of the .45 Schofield and the .45 Colt cartridge. I will admit that despite the use of the term “.45 Long Colt,” I don’t recall ever hearing the Schofield Cartridge referred to as the “.56 Short Colt.”

I will also readily admit that the use of common parlance to describe a cartridge does not bother me in the least. Just my own opinion so not subject to argument (one can argue, of course, if it is right or wrong terminology). Over the years, collectors especially have developed a separate language to avoid confusion in identification of objects during “round table” discussions. For example, the term “Luger Pistol” is not technically correct. It is either P-08, P-08 Lang, P-04, or Pistole Parabellum (commercial) in original German designation. There is, for example, no such thing as a “Model 1914 German Military Luger.” That designation, along with dozens of others,
was developed by collectors, primarily Harry Jones, to make clear the subject matter in discussions. I guess I picked that one because these designations were based on features, rather than historically correct terminology, and the “1914” designation was wrong, since the features of this “Model” were adopted in 1913.

The “common use” of such designations allows a fuller understanding of the subject matter under discussion for many people. In the case of “.45 Long Colt,” it is probably not necessary, but that doesn’t change the value of the whole system.

For Ray, bless him, I don’t understand the problem of “.30 - 06.” It is the U.S. 30 Caliber cartridge adopted in 1906, so that is only a shortened, quicker to say version of perfectly good terminology. Since their was also the .30-01, 30-03, .30-40 Krag and .30 Pedersen in the U.S. Inventory, it helps avoid confusion, again, about the subject under discussion.

For me, the least reason not to use these terms is that as collectors and students we should only be using exactly the correct designation for any cartridge, so we sound “professional.” That is a bit “elitist” in my view. Also, there are some ammunition experts, a dear friend of mine among them (and he is expert, not just as a collector of sorts, a shooter and hunter of a serious nature, and a Ammunition Engineer by Profession, believes that only the current, industry-recognized name for a cartridge is correct to use. As an example, the current SAAMI and CIP terminolory for the .45 Colt/Browning Automatic Cartridge is “.45 Auto.” He believes that appellation is the sole valid one now for the cartridge, and that the use of a term like “.45 A.C.P.” is incorrect. By that standard, the original name of the 9 x 19 mm cartridge, “9 mm Parabellum” would be incorrect terminology (some would say used in “ignorance” - I don’t agree), because SAAMI and CIP both use the designation " 9 mm Luger" for this cartridge. You will note most U.S. headstamps say “9 mm Luger” and many European ones do, some, like Geco commercial ammo of that caliber, having changed from “9 mm Para” on their headstamps. Even Russian commercial headstamps with the rest of the headstamp in Cyrillic had “9 mm Luger” in the Western Alphabet, and for that matter, ever “9 mm Makarov” with "Makarov"spelled in the western fashion on box labels and headstamps in most instances on commercial cartridges, even with the rest of the labels in Cyrillic.

Well, again, just my outlook on this “terminology” business. No one ever said I was smart. :-)


#15

Hello Kevlar,

I think we may have drifted off a little from your original question!

It’s hard to ID the rimfires without some dimensions to go by. Here is my best guess just looking at the pictures. Left to right:

after Wise primer

1 32 rimfire blank
4 41 Shorts
1 32 Short
1 32 Long
1 38 Short
6 44 Shorts
6 38 Longs
1 45 inside primed center fire :)
2 44 longs
1 56-52 Spencer
2 56-50 Spencers
3 56-56 Spencers
1 41 Swiss
3 Inside primed 45-70 Blanks

Like I said these are just guesses based on the pictures.

Paul


#16

The Cal .45 on the far right appears to be an empty case or a cartridge from which the bullet has been pulled. The other two could be blanks or gallery cartridges. You’d have to look inside to see if there’s a card wad or a round ball. They may also be empty.

Ray