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#1

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#2

Maybe not entirely apropos your thread, but…

Many years ago I was “into” US Military history, particularly the Indian Wars of the post-War Of The Rebellion period. I did a lot of research including legal metal-detecting at many of the battle sites and had a very extensive collection of artifacts, including cartridges, cases and bullets.

One day I happened to be visiting a fellow Indian Wars buff who proudly showed me a plaque with several fired cartridge cases from the Battle of the Little Bighorn, aka Custer’s Last Stand. I immediately saw that the cases were 30-06 and was almost embarrased to tell him that he had been duped.

It seems that a nefarious antique dealer had been making and selling the plaques as legitimate relics of the battle and even included a signed certificate of authenticity. With my friends help I tracked this dealer down and gave him a polite phone call, not to chastise him but to advise him that his plaques were bogus. Well, he was very upset with my call, telling me that they were indeed cases from the Custer Battlefield that he had personally picked up at the National Cemetary and that I should mind my own business and not his. Now that I knew exactly what they were I told him that the only connection they had to the battle was that they were most likely fired by an Honor Guard at a burial at the National Cemetary in the late 20th Century. He proceeded to call me a name that I cannot repeat here and hung up on me.

Those plaques were obviously “fakes” made for the pupose of deceit and profit. But, I suppose they may be genuine collector’s items today. I know I would buy one if I happened to find one for sale.

My friend, BTW, immediately took his plaque down and tossed it. He thanked me for telling him and said that he was embarrassed at how many other buffs and collectors he had proudly showed it to.

A couple of my real artifacts can be seen in JOURNAL #439.

Ray


#3

Great story!


#4

Interesting about the guard cartridges. When I was a kid, my neighbor used to tell me stories about when he was a guard at the Tomb. This was during the 1960’s-early 1970’s when the anti-war protesters were at their peak. He said that protesters would climb the fences at night to try to deface the Tomb. In addition to the regular honor guard, other soldiers were on duty to deter these protesters. I distinctly remember him saying that they had “rubber bullets” and IIRC, they were used in .45 pistols. Any ideas about this?

AKMS


#5

News to me. To my knowledge they have never been armed with anything except the bayonet. It was decided that was enough. John Moss should know about anything related to the .45 auto ammo.


#6

I have never heard of that particular .45 round in my life, nor have I ever seen one.

I was not aware that they had any kind of live ammunition, lethal or “less-than-lethal” on them. It would not surprise me at all if they had ammunition available for trouble, but I have not heard of it. The Swiss Guard at the Citt


#7

Here is another fake, which as far as I know isn’t famous, but nonetheless, is still an interesting story.

The photo is of a 7.5 MAS with aluminum case and what appears to be a ball type of bullet apparently made of copper or gilding metal. It is nonmagnetic. The total weight of the cartridge is 13 grams. The primer appears to be live and there is no powder in the case. The headstamp is VE 49 D 1.

As the story goes, the French military was experimenting with the use of aluminum cases in the late 1940’s. The experiments did not prove satisfactory because the aluminum case could not provide a proper amount of neck tension for the bullet. The few aluminum cases that were manufactured (it is told there were 200 such cases in 7.5 MAS as well as 200 cases in 30 Carbine as well as several other calibers) were evidently disposed of at a scrap yard near Paris. A person of interest apparently was able to purchase these empty primed cases and proceeded to seat whatever bullets were available into the empty cases and then distribute them among the cartridge collecting community as a joke due to this persons odd sense of humor (not my words). Apparently, the person who faked this cartridge was known personally by some members of the IAA in France who now say he has passed away.

It has been told that the case with bullet is an absolute fake, but the empty case by itself is a collectors item because so few were manufactured. I was advised to pull the bullet and retain the case for my collection, but the story is just so interesting I think I will leave the cartridge just as it is. If nothing else it is a good conversation piece.

Heavyiron


#8

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#9

Distibute them as a joke ??? You mean “sell” them I think
Anyway at least the cases are good.

Worse is the story of the French 7.62* 39 French rounds.
In the eighties, NCS (Nouvelle Cartoucherie de Survilliers) made AK 47 all plastic blanks like the 7.5 Mas or 7.62 Nato.
The plastic was translucent.

One of the guy working at this company was a new member of the French ctges association.
Two or three people of the club asked him to make sets with different colors (yellow, green and so on, 6 or 7 colors about) of this round for their collection.

The first problem is they din’t get only a set for their colection, but many.

And furthermore, the guy seing these rounds selling 40 $ each, and not being stupid, made a lot of these ctges !!!

JP


#10

Distibute them as a joke ??? You mean “sell” them I think
Anyway at least the cases are good.

Worse is the story of the French 7.62* 39 French rounds.
In the eighties, NCS (Nouvelle Cartoucherie de Survilliers) made AK 47 all plastic blanks like the 7.5 Mas or 7.62 Nato.
The plastic was translucent.

One of the guy working at this company was a new member of the French ctges association.
Two or three people of the club asked him to make sets with different colors (yellow, green and so on, 6 or 7 colors about) of this round for their collection.

The first problem is they din’t get only a set for their colection, but many.

And furthermore, the guy seing these rounds selling 40 $ each, and not being stupid, made a lot of these ctges !!!

JP[/quote]

Jean-Pierre, are any images available of these cartridges (including the original one)?


#11

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#12

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#13

[quote="CSAEOD If these were factory made are they FAKES ?[/quote]

Of course ! They are plastic cases. You just have to add another colorant and you get another new ctge.
the work was not done during day time !
JP


#14

Of course ! They are plastic cases. You just have to add another colorant and you get another new ctge.
the work was not done during day time !
JP[/quote]

We need to refine our definitions: factory made fakes and non-factory made fakes. Were the FN fakes made during the day ?


#15

AKMS might want to add his 7.62x41 fake to the famous fakes post before it gets into the feed chute.


#16

It is only a “fake” if one knowingly tries to pass it off as an original. My 7.62x41mm is a “replica” and any futher replicas I make will be suitably marked as such.

No doubt that there are many “fakes” out there. I know I have run across more than a few in 7.62x39mm over the years!

AKMS


#17

AA


#18

Do people create fake large bore artillery shells or is it primarily found in small caliber ammunition?


#19

I have seen fakes up tp 75mm.


#20

Wow!