Agar coffee mill ammunition

i’m trying to fact check these cartridges. If the agar machine gun was invented in the 1850’s , what was the ammunition for it ? Having read that the 1st bullets used were the .58 caliber Williams type 1 cleaner which i believe was patented in 1861 ? what would your President Lincoln have seen demonstrated ?
Later it was Johnson & Dow patented minie ball cartridges . Is this a Model 61 ? Springfield cartridge.?
I have also read of a type 4 Williams cleaner cartridge developed especially for them , do we know if these were used ?

Don’t take it as Gospel, but I understand both the Agar gun and the first Gatling used a Percussion capped steel cartridge tube loaded with a .58 Musket ( Minie) projectile.
These reloadable tubes were loaded " in the field" just like a muzzle loader ( probably with an arbor press type tool.), and could use normal Rifleman paper cartridges, or loose Powder and Ball, and of course a Cap applicator.)
Just one step away from the centrefire brass cartridge case ( 1874 Gatling).
Doc AV

yes its a steel tube slightly longer than the later Gatling gun. the tube is 2.87" long and 2" deep .I assume the Gatling is the same depth as I beleive they used the same paper cartridges, or 75 grains of black powder

Here is an old post with some information. I could not get it to link, so here is part of it.

.58 Agar ArchivesGeneral Ammunition Collector Discussion Feb 2007

.58 Agar

historian Feb '07

"Last year, I acquired a really nice specimen of the chamber used in the Agar “coffee grinder” rapid fire gun used in the Civil War era.

OAL is 2.875" +/-

A long time advanced collector of such material asked to see it to compare to the specimens in his hands. There is an even more rare variation used in the earliest Gatling, somewhat shorter than the standard Agar chambers which he has.

We were both surprised to discover mine is actually LONGER than his by 1/8" . . . .

In Vol. III of his seminal series on Civil War era cartridges (at p. 277), Dean Thomas shows the Gatling round, noting its OAL as 2.75" and the text discussing the Gatling system references the Agar design as being 1/8" longer, which would be consistent with my example being for the Agar. Yet in Lewis, p. 229, reference is made to specimen 271 - ‘0.58 Union Machine Gun’ with a note in the far column of ’ “Coffee Mill” gun ’ . . . which was / is the nickname for the Agar system, and here, too, the length is cited as 2.75" . . . so if the Agar is indeed longer than the Gatling, this makes my 2.875" item the “XL” of the party.

Edit / additional information follows:

Although he didn’t cite the material, the fellow with the shorter cartridge did determine that the Agar was in fact 2 7/8" OAL, making the shorter round he has the Gatling. Why Lewis refers to it as ’ “Coffee Mill” gun ’ is a question remaining to be answered, but I’ve been informed this was originally in his collection, so it would seem it simply wasn’t included for whatever reason.

Thanks to all for their help and suggestions!"

“Coffee Mill” referred to the shape of the magazine hopper, which resembled Coffee Grinders ( Mills)
of the period, also operated by a rotating handle at the rear.
Similar ref. to the small grinder for Maize or coffee fitted to the buttstock of the Sharps carbine.
As to the case measurement, 2-3/4 inches vs. 2-7/8 inches…Measurements were still
Fractional at the time.
Doc AV

Here’s a picture of the Springfield Armory gun.
June 1950 Springfield Armory

yes good old you tube has footage of homemade ones with modern milled cases.


Thanks for that ,I wish my subs were only $ 3 .00 a year.
I’m sorry to sound like an amateur but are these paper cartridge known as .58 cal model 61 springfield ? ,or a .58 musket ? ,or are they the same thing?