Almost the same cartridges?

Good afternoon.
I can’t figure it out, tell me, please.
Who knows the answer to these questions?
8 x 50 R Mannlicher = 8 x 50 R Siam tipo 45 ?
Was it true that the 8x63 Bofors is an enlarged 7.92x61 Noruego cartridge case?

Hi,
Siamese Type 45 & 8 x 50 Austrian M 93 have look generally similar,
but it’s 2 différents ammo’s not interchangeable .
Sure before the Siamese Type 45 the Siam bought some 1893 mannlicher arms,
but the Type 45 is for one other rifle type Mauser …
Look the shoulder, T 45 Left & Austrian M 93 Right .
Bsrg, Dan

20211014_215442

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Has there been serious research into this issue?
I want to show you a sample of a cartridge produced for one rifle.
The cartridges look different, but they were fired from the same rifle.

we have a good article in bulletin IAA 514 page 4 to 9, one other old in IAA 332.
Bsrg, Dan

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There are some very good books on the Siamese Mauser Rifles, and their ammunition ( 8x50R Siam T45 , 8x52R Type 66) go to Gunboards.Com, in both the Mauser section, and the Japanese Section ( T45,T46 T47 rifles were made in Japan ( early 1900s); besides the upgrades of the Mausers to 8x52R in 1923, Japan also supplied T66 Arisaka Rifles after the Great Kanto Earthquake 1923. ( 1925-27) in 8x52R

As to the similarity between the M1890 Austrian Cartridge ( Originally for M88/90 Mannlichers acquired in 1897 ( Defaulted Bulgarian Contract) Siam after some Trials, developed its own 8x50R cartridge, Not interchangeable with the Mannlicher cartridge ( a weaker, wedgelock BP design,)and Opted for a Mauser Designed, Rimmed Cartridge Action ( slanted magazine as used in Mauser Sporting Actions for British gunmakers ( " flanged express").
Since Mauser was involved with the Turkish M1903 contract, and it’s own Commercial M1904 designs, the Contract was Let under Licence to the Commercial Branch of the Tokyo Artillery and Arms Arsenal, at Koishikawa, an outer suburb of Tokyo.
The Quality of the Siamese T45 etc rifles equals that of European production of the Period ( DWM, Mauser, Steyr, FN)
Ammunition for the T45 was made initially by Japan ( Tokyo); by DWM, and by Kynock. A cartridge factory for home production was set up in the 1920s at BungSoo ( near Bangkok) for home production of 8x52R ammunition.
The 8x52R spitzer cartridge was developed after WWI observations by Siamese Military Observers on the Western Front. Initial cartridge manufacture was by Japan as well
And the Specifications of the 8x52R case were such that a simple re-chambering reamer could clean up the old 8x50R T45 chamber leaving New metal.
Boltface diameters unchanged,
HEADSPACE ( RIM Thickness ) remained the same. Only the ramp of the rear sight was remilled for the flatter shooting T66 cartridge.
Doc AV

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Yes. Quite right, this is the 7.62х54Р cartridge.

So Siam had two different rifles for cartridge 8 × 50 мм R Mannlicher Austro-hungary and for cartridge 8 × 50 мм R Mannlicher Siamese Type 45.
Did I understand correctly?

No, the T45 was a Mauser, forthe 8x50R Siamese T45 ( 1903)
The Previous Mannlichers ( M1888/90) were in 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher Cartridge; because these Mannlicher rifles used a straight-pull Wedge lock action, they were considered too weak for the Mauser Cartridge. Hence the Non-interchangeability.
Clear enough???
Doc AV

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Not very clear.
I will try to formulate the question once again.
The Siamese 8x50R T45 cartridge and the Austrian Mannlicher 8x50R cartridge were used in two different rifles. Each cartridge for its own rifle.

Yes, two different but very similar cartridges.

Frank Allan
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wickj2, the Swedish 8x63 m/32 was adopted by Sweden in 1932. The Norwegian 7.92x61 was adopted around 1937, so you can see that the Swedish round is not en enlarged Norwegian cartridge case. Also, I would like to make it clear that the designation 8x63 “Bofors” is a mistake. There is no indication that Bofors had anything to do with the development or production of this cartridge. It should be called 8x63 Swedish or 8x63 m/32.

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Thanks! I did not know about the date of adoption of the 7.92x61 cartridge.
These cartridges - 7.92x61 and 8x63 are very similar. And it seems closely related.

The only relationship is that both were used in design variants of the Browning M1917 Watercooled MG.
Furthermore, the Norwegians initially tried a 7,9x57 version of the BMG, made by FN; they then increased the power of the cartridge with the 7,9x61 cartridge.
Meanwhile, the Swedish Govt., developed the 8x63 M32 cartridge, for better long range use, also in BMG type Guns ( they already had a Br.auto rifle in 6,5x55 Swedish calibre.).
As to the Siamese question,
Yes, before WWI, Siam had Two different Rifles on Issue, the Mauser Type 45 rifle and cartridge, as the major combat rifle, and the M88/90 Mannlicher in 8x50R Austrian for Training and Secondary Police and Reserve Use. By the 1920s, the Mannlichers were in very limited service, if at all.
Doc AV

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DocAV, the first Norwegian water cooled Browning was adopted as the model 1929. Almost all of them were made by our own factory, Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk and they were chambered for the 7.9x57 cartridge. They were not just tried as you say, but were in full scale use by the army. We also had air cooled Brownings mounted in aircraft. In 1940 we had the model 1929 in both 7.9x57 and 7.92x61, which resulted in guns and ammunition being mixed up during the invasion of Norway.

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