American ctges 14


#1


#2

The 44 CF has a definite primer visible from the outside. The 44 RF rifle did have a double firing pin but their marks are out on the edge of the rim when it was fired. The two marks on your case where designed to help the larger RF cartridges get the primer material out into the edges of the rim by spinning and they were used for gripping and indexing. What is interesting your case length falls in the middle between the long case and the short case variety.

The 30 long RF fits into my group so I agree, does it have a headstamp?


#3

Hello Vic
I think you have made a mistake.
The hstp shown is for the 30 Long ??? RF not for the 44 RF or CF ctge.

JP


#4

OK, but the answer of the reason for the two marks is still the same, to use to index and spin the cartridge to get the primer out to the edges. I had never seen those marks on a 44 RF but I have not seen all of them either. Sorry if that caused confusion. Vic


#5

thank you Vic for the explanation about the marks and the fact the right one is a 30 Long RF.

What about the 44. Is it RF or CF ?

jp


#6

If it is a center fire you will see the primer.


#7

when it is inside primered it is not very easy.
I will try to x ray it
thanks
jp


#8

JP, do you have documentation describing an inside primed .44 Henry?


#9

I don’t have anymore documentation about non-shotshells ctges. I gave it to people some years ago.
All I have now are different boxes where I put my ctges inside when I stopped collecting.
These boxes are labeled : RFctges, US handgun ctges, european handgun ctges and so on

This is why it is the big mess now !!
JP


#10

jeanpierre:

A GOOD CLEAR DEPICTION OF THE HEAD OF THE .44 HENRY MAY SHOW SOME MARKINGS ON THE HEAD THAT COULD ASSIST IN DETERMINING THE MANUFACTURER. SOME OF OUR .44 HENRY AND/OR RIMFIRE SPECIALISTS MAY BE OF ASSISTANCE IN THIS AREA.


#11

As I understand it the two tool marks shown on the head of the 44 Henry RF cartridge by WRA were a result of the tooling used to grip the case while it was rotated to force the case mouth against a fixed “knife” thereby producing a case mouth crimp. I think, but am not certain, that this was related to Stetson’s patent. Later improvements in tooling made the marks on the head unnecessary; they have nothing to do with the firing pins. Jack


#12

Jack

AS HAS ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT, THE HEADSTAMP DEPICTED WITH THE IMPRESSED “H” AND THE 2 TOOL MARKS IS ON THE .30 CALIBER RIMFIRE, NOT THE .44 HENRY. THE TOOL MARKS LEFT ON THE HEAD OF RIMFIRE CASES VARIES GREATLY AND CAN SOMETIMES BE USED TO IDENTIFY THE MANUFACTURER. EVEN IF THE HENRY CARTRIDGE TURNS OUT TO HAVE BEEN MANUFACTURED BY WINCHESTER IT IS NOT A STETSON’S PATENT.


#13

GWB: I did misunderstand which cartridge the headstamp shown applied. I second your suggestion that we be shown the base of the 44 Henry. The fact a cartridge has no headstamp doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t something worth looking at on the base; this is especially true of early U.S. rimfires. Jack


#14

According to Suydam the marks on the 30 Long case were for centrifuge grip or bunter? is there a difference?


#15

As I understand John Barber’s comments in his rimfire book Winchester rimfire cartridges only began to show tool marks on the head when the tooling created to implement the 1871 Stetson patent was first employed. This could be earlier than October 1871 I suppose, but not very much so. Since Winchester and its predecessor firm New Haven Arms had been manufacturing rimfire cartridges for a decade or so at this point the tool marks don’t have any connection to the method of adding priming compound to the cartridge case, assuming Barber is right. Other manufacturers did produce cartridges exhibiting tool marks much earlier, so in these cases perhaps Suydam’s comments are correct. Jack