Ammo casing, 'strange' ammo stripper clip "and stuff" - need ID


#1

Hi guys !

Here are some WW2 relics that I would like to know more about…

1. Green annulus…(special purposes…?) ?


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2. ???


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3. “Z” = Zbrojovka Brno…?


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4. What kind of bullet (lead !?)…?


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5. I didn’t see until now this ‘kind’ of ammo stripper clip…!?!


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6. Black annulus…and that “D”…‘made from brass scrap’ or ‘german standard’…? ;-/

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7. !!! LMG magazin…?!? If so…which one ?

Thank you.


#2

Very nice finds. Green primer annulus is for heavy ball. -Ger


#3

First pic is a Czech made round.


#4

Triggered by an earlier discussion, I got hold of a Romanian dictionary. I did not find any candiate word for “German” or the like that starts with “D”.


#5

Jochem, the meaning of this “D” has been reported to be “Deșeu” (scrap); however, I have never seen documentation supporting this identification. Steel cases are also found marked “O”, which presumably stand for "Oțel” (steel).

Regards,

Fede


#6

Yes, Fede, I remember it was mentioned. I simply tried to persuade Rojon that Romanians would probably not use “D” to indicate “German”.


#7

Oh, thanks, now I understand your point.


#8

Fede et al - I got that information about the “D” meaning “Scrap”
from a very knowledgeable collector born in Romania and moving
here as an adult, and reinforced by a Romanian friend of his, still
there, with an interest in ammo.

Regarding the letter “O” on Romanian headstamps, if we are still
talking about 7.9 x 57, I had, when I collected the 7.9 round, 33 Romanian
cartridges in my collection. None that I felt were actually Romanian had an
“O” in the headstamp. I believe, again, if it was 7.9 ammunition referred to
above as also have “O” in the headstamp, there is one steel-case round
so marked: P O-7.92 A 44. While one would believe this is Romanian,
unfortunately, there is a second round of absolutely identical characteristics
except for the headstamp letter font, marked PS O 7.92 43. That would, on
the face of it, be a Czechoslovakian headstamp from the Slovak factory.

Both of these cartridges were found in Viet Nam during the American involvement
there. Again, both, despite headstamps representing two Warsaw Pact countries
(at that time) and with WWII dates, are identical in all characteristics. I personally
do not believe that they were made in two different countries, and I do believe that
the dates of 44 and 43 respectively are spurious. I am not willing to go out on a
limb and identify the factory and country that actually made both. I simply don’t
know. I also don’t know the meaning of “O” since it appears on these cartridges,
one of which supposedly is Romanian and one Slovak. It might even be that in an
attempt to give them a spurious Romanian identity, responsible parties misread the
“D” on actual Romanian rounds to be an “O” and used it in an attempt to somewhat
duplicate the real WWII cartridges from that country. That is pure conjecture on my
part and I it is not a hard-held belief with me, simply one possible reason for the “O.”
I absolutely do not believe, though, that the details of the headstamp are genuine.
I believe they were a clandestine supply to the Viet Cong, who had many weapons
in this caliber, including some WWII MGs, Czech zb 26’s, various Mauser rifles, etc.

And, by the way, to the original question those “Z” clips are of Czech/Slovak manufacture.
I could be wrong, but I think they were the only ones that manufactured that
particular style of stripper clip for the Mauser. They work just fine in a German
K98k, the only rifle I have ever tried them in.

John Moss


#9

John, thanks a lot for the detailed information. I know the source, but I guess that in these days we try to reconfirm many statements made in the past, when original documentation was only available to a very small number of people.

Regarding the “O” headstamp, it is not the “PS” but this one:

785858_zps387bff48

Regards,

Fede


#10

Fede, Interesting. I recall having one steel-case Romanian
round, but didn’t see it in my catalog, which I still have. I will
look again. Perhaps it is I that mistook an “O” for as being
a “D” or perhaps mine was a different headstamp. I would
love to see a clear picture of that entire CMC round, to see
if it is another example of the odd pair of cartridges from Viet Nam
that I had in my collection.

At any rate, thanks for showing the headstamp. If I was aware of
that headstamp, than I had forgotten all about it, not so unusual
with me now.

With the “odd couple,” there would have been no question in my
mind about the Romanian connection had it not been for the identical
round to the “P A” headstamp, but with a “P.S.” as in “Povazska Strojarne.”
I wish I had made a photo of the two of the rounds in profile, side by side
and of the heads. They were truly as alike as two peas in a pod.

Thanks again, mi amigo, for the correction and additional information

John Moss.


#11

Hi guys !

If that ‘‘D’’ would meaning “brass scrap”…why the producer/factory (“P-A” or “CMC”) would mentioned this “detail”…? ;-/ Less quality…because of scrap…? (I don’t think so…). Maybe it was a contractual “obligation” from the license contract…?? ;-/

Is THAT an “O” or “0” (zero)…?!?

What about the other objects/finds…?? Any info/details…??

Thank you !


#12

Images #2 & #3 are showing a delay element of a grenade fuze. Most likely of the UZRG or UZRGM series (or Romanian copies thereof).


#13

Rojon,
for brass cases it has been standard procedure to only use brass that does not contain any recycled scrap material. Because this requirement makes ammunition more expensive, be assured that scrap indeed does have a negative effect on the properties of the product.


#14

Thank you.

What about the other objects/finds…?? Any info/details??


#15

The magazine could be a from a ZB26 (Czech) machine gun - here the Romanian variant then?


#16

I would say…from a Bren LMG… (though less likely; maybe soviet army: Lend-Lease Act ?!? ) ?!?


#17

A Bren magazine should be more curved no?


#18

If Wikipedia can be believed Romania used the ZB 30 rather than the ZB 26, but surely a ZB mag of some kind, as a Bren mag for the .303 has a much more pronounced curve. Jack


#19

Jack the 30 was the export version of the 26, made for Romania.
If my memory serves me right, we had this subject here before not too long ago.


#20

If I look at the Bren LMG pictures…I would say THIS is EXACTLY a Bren LMG magazin… ;-) BUT…as I said…though less likely, on that zone of Eastern Front of WW2…in 1944 (in this case…MAYBE from soviets…‘Lend-Lease Act’…?!?) . No, it’s not a ZB 30 magazin because the ZB 30 magazin had no curve (I don’t know the details of the license contract for this LMG…but I don’t think it’s a ‘romanian variant’) .