Ammunition for the Soviet PRTS 14.5mm Anti Tank rifle


#1

What cartridge did the Protivotankovoe Ruzh’yo Simonova Obrazets1941 g (PTRS) anti-tank rifle use in its 5-round clips. The clips were double row en-bloc and similar to Garand clips but much bigger. Was it a standard machine gun AP cartridge or a special rifle cartridge? How was it marked? Can anyone please post a picture of the correct cartridge for this rifle?

gravelbelly


#2

Both the PTRD and PTRS AT rifles used the 14.5mmx114 Russian round (at least that’s what Ian Hogg says anyway).


The round in the middle is the 14.5x114. It’s flanked by the 12.7 Russian and the US 60 HMG


#3

These AT rifles used the same case type as what is shown here but this is the MG round. The cartridge was chambered to Soviet heavy MGs and used far more in those than in the AT rifles. The ammunition is still in production for MG use and is made by many countries. The WW2 versions for the AT rifle are getting much harder to come by but there are plenty of the MG rounds in the market place.


#4

Training display of Soviet 14.5 ammo.


#5

The all red bullet with black tip was the cartridge of choice for the AT rifle. It is tungsten carbide core API. The early 14.5 and 12.7 rounds both used small primers but all went to the large primer later in the war era. Many like to argue about this but specimens exist.


#6

I think we discussed the small primer issue on the 14.5mm once before.

The Russians had switched from small to large primers already when the 14.5 was not yet existing.

The particular round for the AT rifle was the BS-41 (API) and some other experimental ones containing irritants etc.
Nonetheless the regular BZT was also used with the AT rifles. In this case the cartridges had to be greased.

To the left the original BS-41 and to the right the MDZ which was mainly used for AA pourpose.
conjay.com/1003z1%2014.5mm%20Various.jpg

And here by the way the US made BS-41 projectile. Those I have seen had a silver tip in accordance to US markings (API):
newlenoxmc.com/Projectiles.htm
The US made B-32 I have not seen yet. Did anybody?


#7

Yes you are correct about the previous discussion which is what I mentioned and you are still mistaken. I have had and still have specimens of the small primer in the 14.5 and will put up photos next time I see them. Most of my ammo is in storge and since I have no current business with the 14.5s they are in storage. You will be enlightened in due course.

I have a box of the BS 41 from Frankford Arsenal with silver tips and will put it up when I find it.


#8

[quote=“EOD”]I think we discussed the small primer issue on the 14.5mm once before.

The Russians had switched from small to large primers already when the 14.5 was not yet existing.

The particular round for the AT rifle was the BS-41 (API) and some other experimental ones containing irritants etc.
Nonetheless the regular BZT was also used with the AT rifles. In this case the cartridges had to be greased.

To the left the original BS-41 and to the right the MDZ which was mainly used for AA pourpose.
conjay.com/1003z1%2014.5mm%20Various.jpg

And here by the way the US made BS-41 projectile. Those I have seen had a silver tip in accordance to US markings (API):
newlenoxmc.com/Projectiles.htm
The US made B-32 I have not seen yet. Did anybody?[/quote]

Thank you for the LENOX link.


#9

[quote=“CSAEOD”]Yes you are correct about the previous discussion which is what I mentioned and you are still mistaken. I have had and still have specimens of the small primer in the 14.5 and will put up photos next time I see them. Most of my ammo is in storge and since I have no current business with the 14.5s they are in storage. You will be enlightened in due course.

I have a box of the BS 41 from Frankford Arsenal with silver tips and will put it up when I find it.[/quote]

Yes, an image of the small primed 14.5 would be interesting to see.

FA made whole 14.5x114 cartridges?


#10

I do not know that but I do have a box of the projectiles. I have US made cases but they are steel and not made by FA.

When we first started testing effects of these we did not have many to work with. 20mm M103 cases were necked down to .50 to simulate the effect of the 14.5 on helicopter materiel during the Viet nam war.


#11
  • @ gravelbelly: I don’t see any difference between the 14.5X114 shell case used during WW2 and the 14.5X114 shell cases manufactured after 1945. With a WW2 date I have a 14.5X114 brass case headstamped [raised headstamp] “3” [Ulyanovsk ammo plant] over “42” [1942] with a “star” at 3 o’clock position. This 14.5X114 was definitely manufactured for the Russian AT rifles PTRD or PTRS. The primer has a diameter of 9mm [0.354-in]. I don’t know for sure the meaning of that “star” mark, it may be connected with an interior cartridge case dimension or the shape of the material used to manufacture the 14.5X114 shell case. Not long ago it was posted here a topic about this interesting subject. Liviu 06/16/07

#12

They are the same case except that lots of post war(WW2) cases are steel and I have never seen a war date in steel.

Do you have Romanian ones ? Which loads ?


#13
  • @ CSAEOD: Correct, I’ve never seen 14.5X114 steel shell cases with WW2 dates. I only have fired Romanian made 14.5X114 shell cases, all having raised headstamps: “21” [most probably Cugir Arsenal" over “73” and “75” [brass cases] and steel cases with no maker’s mark, only with a two digit date [“83”, “86” and “87”]. I also have the original non-disintegrating steel belt link with the capacity of 10 rounds [no markings]. The 14.5X114 round is still in use in Romania. Liviu 06/16/07

#14

Did you ever weigh a 1942 brass case and compare it to a brass case from the late 1950’s?


#15

ab


#16

[quote=“Laurent”]Here a picture of a B-32 of WWII. The headstamp is: 3 * 44

[/quote]

That’s a nice photo. The main reason that I initiated this post was to find what would be a typical cartridge to be in the 5-round PTRS clip for photography. I have an aversion to sloppy errors such as incorrect labels in museums, the wrong ammo shown with a weapon, tumbleweed in Hollywood Western films and the wrong cartridges in clips, belts etc.
I am a collector of clips, chargers, MG links and belts etc. I like to display one of each clip filled with cartridges if possible. So, if original rounds are unobtainable or too valuable to use as “clip fillers” I will use one that it dimensionally correct, the right materials, the right colour markings and inert so I don’t have to lock the clips up.

gravelbelly


#17

The most commonly used shell was the all red with black tip. The most commonly encountered shell which survived is the black/red tip.


#18
  • @ EOD: I cannot do what you asked because of 2 reasons: 1] I don’t have an accurate scale or any other way of weighing. (Note: In the narrow mind of many cops having a precise scale in the house automatically means you deal with illegal drugs). 2] The 14.5X114 brass shell case I have [headstamped “3” over “42” and “star” at 3 o’clock] has a projectile crimped in place and a small hole in the shell case shows that there isn’t any propellant inside. The projectile is original but corroded and no origial paint is visible on the tip or below. Liviu 06/17/07

#19

Liviu - I asked my son about the scale situation. He felt that you don’t have to worry about what you said. A scale alone is not presumptive evidence that you have drugs, especially if the scale is in grains. Druggies prefer scales in grams, although their use of one in grains is not unknown. He is the drug identification officer for his station in the CHP. Of course, he can’t speak for your state, but he said it is not quite so easy to tie a guy to drugs as what you mentioned. Evidently there are lots of legal hoops they have to jump thru which sometimes are bad but sometimes are good. He didn’t feel that someone like yourself having a scale should be any problem at all. At any rate, I wouldn’t be without a scale under any circumstances. I have a single-beam balance I use for reloading, and an electronic scale in my library room I use for cartridge purposes. It is a basic cartridge collecting tool, just like a magnet (actually magnets, plural, are better - at least strong and weak) magnifying glass (especially for us old guys with failing eyesight) and vernier caliper of one sort or another. An inertia bullet puller (properly used only on identified bullet types!) is another.


#20
  • A police chief from the state of TN, in a town where I used to live some years ago said something about scales [his opinion was later printed in the local newspaper]: “Having an accurate scale in your house makes me to suspect an illegal activity of drugs”. I’ve never trusted cops and I never will. Actually I don’t have an accurate scale in my home because I don’t reload cartridges. Liviu 06/18/07