Here is an odd 7,92 headstamp I stumbled upon. Notice that despite the 1944 date, it is just and “st” case instead of the generally accepted “st+” design. Has anyone else seen any aux headstamps from 1944 like this?
The loading is a standard Platz 33 blank.
Thanks,
Dave
Hey John,
Yes, this is typical. Polte did that between lots 12 and 27 of 1944 by what I have for samples. There is probably a few more up or down, this is what I have seen myself. Someone at Polte probably had a bad day.
Dave
Dave,
As it is a 3 stake primer crimped case, my guess is that it was reject because of headstamp and used for Platzpatrone 33 as this was supposedly common practice.
Joe
It was a common practice to use rejected cases for the manufacture of Platzpatrone 33. I doubt that the headstamp had anything to do with the round posted being a blank. Reverse headstamps and otherwise out of order headstamps are not uncommon on German 7.9 x 57. Some makers seemed to have made most of their cases with the headstamp in that fashion. They exist in 7.9 x 33 and 9 x 19 mm as well. They are often seen in their correct ball (or other) loadings, which lends credence to the belief that the headstamp style of itself was not cause for rejection.
In some occupied countries, they never approximated the German style of headstamp even though they carried a German assigned factory-code number. On 9 mm Para, the codes “pjj” and “qrb” come to mind. The opposite is true also. The factory initials SB" and “Z” from Czechoslovakia appear on otherwise completely wartime German style headstamps, believed to be made primarily for export to neutral coountries like Sweden, or for internal use of the home country’s police, etc.
Admittedly, a thorough study of German headstamps, especially from the Third Reich era, is a daunting task and sometimes lead to the conclusion that there wasn’t much order in “Deutsche Ordnung.”
John, the “SB” and “Z” headstamped steel cases are documente din Swedish marked boxes if I recall it right. I think we had a thread on them here on the forum.
Well, the out of norm hedastamp was just a suggestion as to why the case was a reject loaded for Platz 33. It is definitely not the norm to 3 stake crimp Plats 33 cases, so it in most likelihood is a reject case.
Joe
Also aux steel case in 1942 through 1945 not having the “+” after the “S” is only known on the example pictured according to my references of what is known to have been documented. With the exception of Werkzeugpatrone of course. That’s why I lean toward rejected case along with the 3 primer stab crimps. Could metallurgy also play a role in the rejection? Sure, but I think the missing “+” is much more likely with this particular manufacturer, as why would they have went so far to 3 stab crimp if they were rejected cases. That could have been at the stage where they caught the mistake in the headstamp. I look at a lot of the headstamps from 1943 that where out of order and they were loaded up as Platz 33. Yes a slight few slipped by and were made into other.
Joe
I think my answer was not read well, or else I wrote it poorly.
Joe - I ackowledged the use of rejected cases for loading of PP33 rounds by the Germans. It is a commonly known and understood fact. I only cast doubt on the case being rejected because of the reverse headstamp. I have seen to many of these cartridges in loads apprpriately having primer crimps, loads the case production was originally intended for, to accept that the form of the headstamp was reason for case rejection.
EOD - I am well aware of the Swedish connection to the Z and SB headstamps in German form, from Czechoslovakia, and referred to that connection in my answer. I had the boxes for both of the 7.9 x 57s, in the Swedish language, and I have a Swedish ammunition wall chart showing these rounds and their headstamps, although they are improperly drawn. I dare say I was one of the first cartridge collectors aware of this, actually in regard to the “Z”-headstamp 9 mm Para with German-style headstamp, due to my connection with a Swedish Ordnance Reserve Officer with whom I toured parts of Western Europe in 1972 (I actually met him in our store three years earlier than that and was corresponding with him on ammunition subjects).
[quote=“JohnMoss”]I think my answer was not read well, or else I wrote it poorly.
“Joe - I ackowledged the use of rejected cases for loading of PP33 rounds by the Germans. It is a commonly known and understood fact.” Yes, I had no doubt of such.
“I have seen to many of these cartridges in loads apprpriately having primer crimps, loads the case production was originally intended for, to accept that the form of the headstamp was reason for case rejection.” Yes. I have seen a few also, but what is your assumption as to why there is no “+” after the “S”, as it is only known on the example pictured for aux in 1942 through 1945 according to my references???
Joe
We are talking about 1944. Industry was not able to fulfill the required production figures. I think it is out of the question that cases could have been rejected because of cosmetic errors on the headstamp. A waiver would have been requested and issued, I am sure.
I have no assumption, Joe, on why they chose to either make a lot of cases of the type before the improvement that prompted the + on the headstamp, or simply it was a bunter-maker’s boo-boo that properly, in the conditions in Germany in 1944, was not considered important enough to reject otherwise perfectly good cases. Only sectioning one of the cases would tell the story, I think.
That said, it is not the only known instance of a backward jump to the St case by case makers who had already produced the improved St+ cases. I don’t recall the others off-hand, but someone should know that. Having just pretty much completed the disposal of my once-12,600 round collection of 7.9 x 57, about half of which was German, I really don’t care to go back and re-research what I have forgotten. It was hard enough making the decision to dispose of the collection. Perhaps the St case was simply easier to manufacture - I simply don’t know. Regardless of the huge amount of research done on German SAA in the last decade or two, there are still unanswered questions and probably will be forever. I don’t even know if the question of resumption here and there of St cases over St+ ones is unanswered. I am not the brightest bulb in the lamp!
Very much so in my opinion. I don’t recall, but I don’t think I had that one, and I did collect every lot number and date as well as every single visual difference, for all countries and eras, including commercial and military.
It is a “goodie” as some would say.
So if the aux “St” is a “goodie”, what about this hlb round ?
It’s also a 1944 dated one with the “St” marking, and some sort of divider line
Was the St+ case type also used for the 7.92 x 33mm round? I ask because I have one sitting on my desk with the headstamp: aux 26 44 St The headstamp layout is identical to the first image which started this thread, just a different lot number.
gravelbelly
[quote=“orpheus72”]So if the aux “St” is a “goodie”, what about this hlb round ?
It’s also a 1944 dated one with the “St” marking, and some sort of divider line
[/quote]
These are a more or less regular observation in Europe.
Gravelbelly - the Kurzpatrone does not seem to have utilized an improved version of its original case, as most German specimens have the “St” marking, and not the plus mark. That said, I know there is at least one aux-code lot number in 7.9 x 33 mm that has the “+” mark. Perhaps more, but I only had one round of one lot number go thru my hands. Regretably, I did not record that lot number. It could have been a headstamp error, or the conscious use of a 7.9 x 57 mm bunter for one reason or another. Someone with time who has the excellent book on this caliber (from German) might research that for this thread. I honestly don’t know if they really ever applied an case improvement of the type denoted by the plus mark to the Kurzpatrone.
EOD - My impression is that the slash across the base of some hld-code 7.9 x 57s is relatively common, whereas that single, late lot of aux case production without the marking for the improved case is not common, at least not here in the U.S.
John, I referred only to the “hlb” only and as most here know 7.92x57 is nothing I sould state much on.
[quote=“orpheus72”]So if the aux “St” is a “goodie”, what about this hlb round ?
It’s also a 1944 dated one with the “St” marking, and some sort of divider line
[/quote]
Supposedly the two opposing radial lines indicates the case was made from bar stock instead of typical flat stock. All 7,9 hlb 1944 headstamps of steel that I have knowledge have the bar stock opposing line indicators. Supposedly they started intermittently using bar stock in 1941. All hlb known to me of steel 7,9 in 1945 are also bar stock indicated.
Joe
Addition: I do not now of any hlb or P163 7,9 headstamps with a “+” after the “St” from inception - 1945.