An internally primed .58 cartridge from Ward's Auction


#1

Hi everyone,
I was looking through the items for sale on Ward’s auction and saw an internally primed .58 caliber cartridge for sale. I was wondering if anyone has the name of the primer type and possibly a patent number. Any information on the primer used on this cartridge would be greatly appreciated. I’m guessing this is an experimental Frankford Arsenal production from the era when they were exploring Benet and Martin primers; so mid to late 1860s I suppose.
Thanks.
image


#2

What’s the lot number? With a crimp going all around as your picture seems to show. I can’t say for sure.

do a search here for threads on Benet, Bar, Martin and Treadwell primer systems / cartridges. (4 separate & different systems) also I think there is mention in the reference portion of our site.


#3

Lot number is 4427…

Randy


#4

Pete
I wish the bottom of this cartridge had a better view,is there a possibility this being one of the extremely
rare CUP ANVIL experimentals if it is I envy the guy that gets hands on that one
Sherryl


#5

When I had a question about a lot, I emailed Ward and got a prompt answer with a couple of extra pics I requested showing the front and back of the round I was interested in.


#6

Thanks Randy, I second Mel’s advise.

Sheryl I wasn’t aware they did cup anvil experiments with this case type. Where do you show a record of that?


#7

I’ll send an email requesting some more pictures, especially of the bottom. I’ll post them here.
I do think this is possibly a cup anvil judging by the shape, but no way of knowing without an x-ray or some matching historical documents.


#8

Pete
Your question is justified I do not know myself with what cases they experimented I only can judge by
the little I can see on that pic.Unless someone can lecture me otherwise I think a lot of experimentation
in that transition period from 1855 to 1870 had taken place of wich we most likely only know bits and pieces
of some companies or arsenals of what they had done in those far away days since record keeping in those
days was not the science it is today
Sherryl


#9

Here are the pictures Eric Ward sent to me. The primer is not attracted to a magnet. I know that these .58 cartridges were produced with copper cup Benets. I wonder if it is a copper cup Benet that was jammed over to one side during manufacturing, making the cup bulge out the cartridge on that one side. The last picture seems to show the top edge (relative to the picture) with no significant crimp, if any. Without holding it in my hands it is hard to say. This is a guess; I hope someone else has a better hypothesis. Thanks.


#10

It is very difficult to say but what it looks like someone tried to jam that cartridge into a chamber
it did not belong to
Sherryl


#11

Sheryl
2 things

  1. Think you & Maynard might be correct either a flaw or a jam, and his photos leave a lot to be desired.

  2. The 1876 Philadelphia exposition had a lot of the experimental work by FA on display and it has been recorded in several books. Most (BUT NOT ALL) of the work was done on the .45-70 and the .50-70. If your interested in this period the books (Col. B.R. Lewis and George Murphy were authors) dealing with it should be listed on this site.


#12

Pete thanks for the the tip and advise
Sherryl