Anschießen, Anschuss

General Ammunition Discussion
#1

The very interesting post “German WWII 9mm P08 Color Codes” brought up the title of this post, and it explains this thread title being a round used in connection to “zeroing” or “to zero in” in test firing.

Thus used in not quite the same way as a Reference or a Standard round, but with a more specific use, and still having the same / similar high qualities as those.

So does anyone know if this type of round (or packaging) exists in any other German Small Arms ammunition during or pre-WW II? And if so, how were those identified?

#2

Pete, after a quick search in my files I have found this image of 7.92x57 boxes which came from the web (or even from the forum here).

#3

And here a 7.92x94 Patrone 318 Anschuss:

#4

Here a box label for 20mm projectiles (source; internet):

Here the special projectile for the 37x265B Flak 18 (source; German Air Force manual):

#5

Ordinary 7.9 mm was only tested for dispersion by firing 4 groups of 20 shots. Average extreme spread of the 4 groups was to be not more than 14 cm. No group was to exceed 18 cm.

For Anschussmunition the mean point of impact was also tested and had to be within certain limits in relation to the MPI of a reference lot. Alas, I do not know the actual figures and I do not know whether the dispersion requirement for Anschuss was stricter. Reference lot means some lot selected from production, not specially manufactured ammunition like todays reference cartridges. The 7.9 mm reference lot to be used was changed at least once during the war.

Anschussmunition was also issued to snipers, but they kept complaining that it was not accurate enough. Snipers had the view that group size at 100 m should not exceed 7 cm.

Anschießen is a military term, in civilian circles zeroing is called Einschießen. Militarily, Einchießen refers to ranging-in of artillery fire.

Pistol cartride procedure was firing 32 shots at 50 m. All had to fit into a 30 cm diameter circle, and at least 28 in a 24 cm circle.

Dispersion requirements for 7.9 mm Kurzpatrone (or PistPatr 43) were the same as for 7.9 mm rifle ammunition.

To have it all in one place: Beschuss is high pressure test (Blue Pill in American parlance). But beware, the term Beschuss was used in a somewhat sloppy fashion. Words like Prüfbeschuss or Funktionsbeschuss simpy mean test firing and functional firing and do not imply high pressure cartridges.

#6

JPeelen: Are the group sizes you mention for 7.9 in your preceding post for 100 m. and were they fired in service rifles? One of my subordinate collecting interests is acceptance standards and verifiable accuracy obtained by rifles, particularly with iron sights, in the period 1880 to World War Two or thereabouts. Jack

#7

Thank you gentlemen. It’s good to learn & this is a good place to do it.

#8

Thanks for the information. I have seen the 7.9x57mm Anschuss box photos, but not the cartridges that go with them. Are the rounds in these boxes identified by red bases and or red bullets???

The drawing of the 7.9x94, 318 Anschuss seems to indicate it has a green (grüner) base or a green stripe on the base, but that is probably just my poor German.

What evidence/documentation/specimens are there out there that tie the red bullets and/or red bases/primers to the Anschuss loads on SAA.

I’m not arguing about the identification of Anschuss, but just looking for the basis of the identification for my files.

Many thanks for all the great information.

Cheers,
Lew

#9

Lew,

Outside the box a 7,9 anschuss cartridge is not identify anymore.
Just a standart sS round.

451kr.

#10

Lew, you are absolutely correct about the “green stripe”.
As we know the same marking on a regular 7.92x57 would indicate a “l.S.” (light spitzer projectile - short range).
So not everything is as obvious as we wish it to be.

#11

Jack,
yes, the accuracy tests were done at 100 m from a service rifle which was mounted in a fixture (not fired from the shoulder).
There even existed a specification TL 9904 “Prüfvorschrift für Schusswaffen 98 als Beschusswaffe” that laid out the requirements for a service rifle to be used as test weapon. Alas, I never encountered a TL 9904 (TL = Technische Lieferbedingungen, equivalent to a military specification). “Schusswaffen 98” is a global term for the weapons firing the 7.9 mm ammunition.

The dispersion data I cited (valid for S and sS) are taken from TL 13/1001 dated 03 Nov 1932, change status 14 Sep 1940: Vorläufige technische Lieferbedingungen für Geschosse S., s.S. und S.m.K.

SmK requirements were: average group size 16 cm, none larger than 20 cm.

SmK L’Spur requirements (TL 13/1002, title sheet missing, dated 22 Dec 1939): average group size 20 cm, none larger than 24 cm.

Hope this is useful to you. To check the above values, a transparent template was used that presumably showed circles of the required diameters. Drawing number was 13E9202 L25, but I never saw one.

P.S. If you anyone knows details of the procedure to obtain R50 or R100 values in the Warsaw Pact armies (especially what was done if a lot in first test failed the requirement) I would be very grateful for any information.

#12

Interesting that the 7.9mm Anschuss are not marked during the WWII period.

So, what leads us to conclude that the 9mm Anschuss had red bases and/or red bullets?

Are there any known (or suspected) 9mm Anschuss loads from before Feb 1938???

Cheers,
Lew

#13

JPeelen: Thanks for your additional comments; they are appreciated. Jack