Any interest in a 8x58R Danish thread?

I’m by far an expert but i have lots of knowledge (and some books) on the subject of the Danish M1889 (Norvegian M1888) and Swedish M1889 8x58R ammo.
If there is interest here i will compile my knowledge/understanding of this cartridge and answer questions if i’m able.

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Yes!!! Please do!
Maybe you have some exotic ones to show?

I’ll start compiling tomorrow when i’m sober ;-)
will take some hours.

Life can be cruel :-D

The cartridge that started it all.
The original 227gr round nose bullet (*) over a healthy dose of BP.
Some 72½grains compacted to a solid in the case and another 7½grains of priming powder to set it of. And the hexagonal (Rasmussen) rifling.
With that load pressures clocked in at around 33½kpsi (from black powder!!!)
DSCN0135 s

My earliest one is’nt even in a Danish case!
DWM from 1892, the others are from 1901.
The Arsenal started making 8x58R cases in 1890 but only on an experimental basis.

From git go there was no color code as the only loading was BP. From @1890 the first smokeless trickled out so the BP cartridges had a black tip and bottom. Silly i know but bear with us as armour piercing wasent invented yet ;-)


DM 92

Right after that a blank saw the light of day.
Wooden bullet and red paint on base and bullet.
Earliest one is a reloaded 1898 case.
And the Navy had their own system so blanks had to be blue.



Then came the 1908 spitzer cartridge.
Again black bottom and tip but this time it was a mark for the Navys 1893 rolling blocks and the reduced load. Also found in green and dark blue to add to the confusion.
Remington on the left and standard on the right.


As part payment for the Virgin Islands some 25million 8x58RD was negotiated. Maxim won the contract but their quality was so shotty that the Danish government paid an US lawyer $10000 to end the contract and Remington delivered the remaining. Marked RA over 17 (year).


The illusive Maxim round:
8x58RD Maxim
And the letter to end Maxims contract:

Then a long spell of quiert until WWI and the inventions of AP, tracers and extended use of automatic weapons. Denmark was slow af and nothing new happend until the 1930’s.

Tracers (M1908/33) ended up with white tip and bottom.
And again to add to the confusion some were with added red over the white because the wet guys couldnt use the same system as the rest!


AP (M1908/36) black botton with a copper washed bullet or zink washed bullet.


And blanks for (Madsen) mashineguns with green bottom and wooden bullet.

After the 1932 Olympics the Danes had learned that 8mm was to high in recoil and the lot shot 6,5mm cartridges. So i 1933 a select few M28 (sniper) rifles was converted to 6,5mm thus the 6,5x58RD in preparation for the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.


Along the line a craving for gallery loads became apperent and several was devised. The first ones with a 5,5gram~85grains lead bullet came along in the late 1890’s. Later on loads with jacketed for 55- and 110yard shooting.



During the war and the German occupation buckets of used cases marked green for blanks were loaded as live rounds.
Only two batches is known during German occupation: 1940 and 1942.

The * asterix was used by the government arsenal and the circle was used by Danish Munitions Factory (Schultz & Larsen) wich was a private buisness.
Note that DM always used a circle (on military orders) to denominate that the loading was done there even on brand new cartridges done in Arsenal cases.

They used brass from the Arsenal but also from Norma.
Here are 3 different Norma cases from DM:

(*): Quote: The 8x58R Danish (and Swedish) cartridge was developed in the era of BP, with the change over to Smokeless (or semi-smokeless) Powder. Bullets were cylindrical and long, whilst Grooves were deep (BP Practice). Excess Friction from a Long bearing surface on the Lands was reduced by making the Bullet of a diameter intermediate between Bore (8mm-.315" ) and Groove depth (.329-.330"). This Principle was used on all the 1886-1890s Long cylindrical bullets with Metal Jackets…The Flat or concave Base of the Bullet “Upset” to fill the grooves and give Obturation (“Base Upset Obturation”) and created a driving Band effect, whilst the rest of the cylinder was lightly engraved with the rifling.
This Method of combining Bullet and rifling is usually called “the Austrian Technique” as Steyr was the first to manufacture rifles to this system in 1888. It will be found in all “8mm” Rifles, mm 7,62 (Russian), and in the Commission 88 (Germany). In effect, all rifles with long, RN, heavy Ball cartridges.

So to fit a bullet for the 8x58R Danish/Swede, one needs a RN, Flat Based .324" Bullet; if one wants to use a Spitzer Boattail, then one must use a .329" Bullet ( Boat Tails don’t “Base upset obturate”, so a BT .323 or .324 would suffer “Windage” and subsequent inaccuracy.) This was found in 1930 ( Austria) with the improvement of the .324" 8x50R to the Spitzer .329" 8x56R ( with Boat tail…the reduced contact area and the boat tail both required the “Upsize” to prevent windage.
Now: to get Bullets for .324 in the 8x58R…use RN Jacketed Flat based “8mm” bullets, or make your own Spitzer BT by sizing down Hornady .338" in a Lee .329" Sizing die and use a strong (Cast iron/steel) O-frame Press; or cast and size Lead to .329"
Or buy .329" 8mm M30 S bullets from AV Ballistics Technical Services (Australia)…CNC turned Brass to M30 (8x56R Profile, but 172 grains only…60/40 Brass vs. 205gn Lead core steel jacket Milsurp.) Or even Pull down 8x56R ammo for the .329" FMJs.
Best for the M1895 Swede RB in 8x58R is the RN FB .324 diameter Jacketed, or the Cast Lead at .329"; although later used with the improved Spitzer 8x58R later in its life, the RB prefers the (milder) Loads of the RN Bullet…and the rifles are too nice to use with spitzer bullets…“out of Character” and “out of Era”.
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Technical Services
Brisbane Australia.
Unquote

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Very Interesting! Thanks a lot for this compilation. I learned a few things!

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Yes, thank you very much for this rare information, in particular the authentic Danish data sheets.

Special reduced tracer load for 75mm gun:

Chamber dravings:

Norma catalog:
8x58RD bullets

Odd ones:
34-1939 s685 markeret
89 panser m1908-36
23876855gp

M1936 tracer:

M1939 trecer;

mejselslag-1908-1

SANY0003

SFM 8 58RD lille

2 Likes

Thanks for the info!

Wow, when I am final with the Swedish ammunition, this is truly the collection I need to continue with!

Thanks a lot for all the info!

//Chris

No stoopid questions!!!
Just ask and i’ll do the very best to answer myself or seek help to answer.

Chickenthief,

If possible could you provide additional information (translation) on the reduced tracer loading for the 75mm gun

Translate the box label below, type of loading?

23876855gp

The story behind Remington-UMC produced M1908 8mm ammunition in 1917?

8043e9f9205691250070719ceb85f531cfd824bb_2_690x357

Provide information on the ammunition contained in the box pictured below, date, contract loading???

SANY0003

Thank you very much,

Brian

8mm Tracer M1908/40 with reduced load.
The cartridge is like the normal M1933 tracer but with a loading of 2.5grams~38½grains so V25 is 520m/s~1705ft in the adaptor cartridge. Thus mimicing the bullet path of the 75mm gun and its original shell. The tracer burns to a distance of @600m~656yds.
Tip is painted red but the bottom has a white streak instead of the normal tracers completly white bottom.
Cartridges are packaged in normal tracer boxes but has an added label marked: Only for use in 75mm adaptor cartridges.


Dansk Ammunitionsfabrik = Danish Munitions factory Otterup
50 pcs.
8mm cartridge M1908
Ball

LOT: 02 of 1963
Bullet: 12,7gram~196grains ball
Powder LOT: 423
Loaded: Oct 22 1963


As i mentioned a lot of 25 million 8x58RD cartridges was part of payment for the Danish Virgin Islands sold to the US in 1917.
The original manufactor was Maxim but the test lots they supplied was of such poor quality that the Danish Government paid an US attorney $10000 to get out of the contract with Maxim. Remington then completed the contract.


In blue stamped ink:
Nya Hylsor = New Cases
Remington = meaning with reduced load intended for use in Swedish/Danish/Norwegian converted M1867 remingtons (Max chamber pressure 1600bar~23.2kpsi)
In black:
10 st = 10 pcs 8mm blsp-patroner = lead tipped (hunting) bullets
Mod 67/89 = Converted Remington Rolling Block model 1867/89
Kulvikt 12,7gram = Bullet weight 196grains

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Very interesting thread indeed! (Suddenly, I became aware I have not even a single 8 x 58RD in my collection…)

Excellent compilation and replies.
Increase Danish information “nth” degree.
One request: AVB Tech Services needs original Projectile designs with all measurements ( Tech.specs) for CNC conversion for producing Brass Projectiles.
(Similar to other current production).
M89 Roundnose, and M?? Spitzer.

And thanks for using my 8x58R contribution.

Doc AV
AVB Tech Services
Brisbane
AUSTRALIA
info@avbtechservices.com.au

Probably the best i can do is send you one of each.
Sounds like a plan?
Else it will be digital calibers with a .02mm~.001" margin om the long measuremets and a digital micrometer x10 as accurate on the diameters.

1 Like

Great thread! Should be a print article in the journal.

Chickenthief.

Thank you for the information and translation!

Brian

Dear Chickenthief, the designs I am after are the “factory” prints, with such things as Ogive radius,
BT angle, Meplat diameter, dimensions of cannelure used for mouth crimping, base concavity if present, etc.
Unless you are a cartridge engineering draftsman, these specs will be beyond a simple calipers and ruler design.
Thanksforthe offer,
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous
New Year.
Doc AV

Sorry mate i do not know if such designs exist at all.