Arab writting question


#1

From a text written in arab, is it possible to determine which kind of arab country is it for?

I am not talking about what is described in the text, but just to know if it is arab from arabia, or from turkey, or from joradania, and so on.

thanks


#2

Jean-Pierre,
as long as it is an Arab speaking country like Algeria, Egypt or Jordania, they all write the same. Except for the fact that local expressions vary as we have it between Belgium and France, Austria and Svizzerland, Russia and Byelorus to quite some extend. Those expressions provide the key to the origin, not the writing.
Example: 20 will always be “nonante” in Belgium while “quatre-vingt” is inevitable en France.

When it comes down to Arabic writing of non Arab speakers, like Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, … the story is different. Then it will be like among us Westerners from different corners. We can read it and do not understand. Here to find out the origin you need to know more about the language than just random expressions.
Example: We can read “tyve”, but we will not automatically know it stands for 20 and is Swedish.
The fact that the Arab Arab uses and has no P like you need it in Pakistan lead to introducing own letters there, based on the Arabic B (ب) they added 2 dots to make it a P (پ). I have no knowledge to which extend such was also done elsewhere, but this might also provide a clue.

To foreclose you question, I see no such clues in the PILONI headstamps. But please keep in mind, I had purely technical matters to graduate from college :-)


#3

Thanks Hans

1)I don’t understand very well.
Do you mean that :

Algeria, Egypt, Jordania speak arab and use arabic writting
Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan don’t speak arab but use arab writting.

Is it that ?? !!!

  1. What is the language in Liban ??? Arab or not ???
    (I am talking about the language used by libanese people , not by imported palestinians)

  2. And if I understand you, they don’t speak arab in Pakistan or Iran ???

  3. Are you sure what you call arab is not the classic arab?
    It would make more sense.

  4. But I know Algerian and Egyptian don’t speak the classic arab for sure .
    Therefore I don’t understand.

You confuse me a lot Hans ! lol!

  1. Anyway, the important question is :
    I show you a text in arab (or whatever you call it).
    Could you tell me for which country it is or it isn’t ???
    Indeed I found some ctges ctalogue from 1910 and I want to know for which country it is (or not).

Thanks
JP


#4

I forgot :
What was the language in Turkish in 1910 ?
arab arab or arab no arab ?

jp


#5

[quote=“jean-pierre”]
I forgot :
What was the language in Turkish in 1910 ?
arab arab or arab no arab ?[/quote]
J-P, you are joking, or provoking, I know. The Osman Empire’s official language was Turkish, and in the occupied territories the local languages could be used. This includes Greek, Armenian, Georgian, Bulgarian, Albanien, … Enough?

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
1)I don’t understand very well.
Do you mean that :
Algeria, Egypt, Jordania speak arab and use arabic writting
Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan don’t speak arab but use arab writting.
Is it that ?? !!!..[/quote]
Yes

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
2) What is the language in Liban ??? Arab or not ???
(I am talking about the language used by libanese people , not by imported palestinians) …[/quote]
They speak Arab in Lebanon as much as they speak French in Bourgogne

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
3) And if I understand you, they don’t speak arab in Pakistan or Iran ??? …[/quote]
Yes, in

  • Pakistan they mainly speak Urdu
  • Iran they mainly speak Farsi
    Those are both non Arab languages. On top in both countries the languages of ethnic minorities are spoken. Of course there is an Arab minority in Iran.

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
4) Are you sure what you call arab is not the classic arab?
It would make more sense…[/quote]
What I call Arab is a semitic language derived from the the classical Arab and basing on it. To make it clear to you please look around in France. Everybody speaks French, even though what you hear (heard!) in the streets of Normandy sounds different. Even though so close to Paris! Please accept this fact as valid for all languages and countries.
Languages in item 3) are not of semitic origin.

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
5) But I know Algerian and Egyptian don’t speak the classic arab for sure…[/quote]
I never wrote they spoke classical Arab. Please read my message, I wrote of local variations. In those countries they basically do speak Arab but in local variations, please see previous item 4). I thought you would understand my first example, but I just read disappointedly what I wrote during my lunch break blackout. Please forget what I originally gave as the first example, the following was meant and makes more sense:
Example: 90 for the Belgians is “nonante” while you inevitably use “quatre-vingt-dix” in France. Again, the further away you are from Paris, the more different spoken French is. This same rule is valid for all languages and Algiers is maybe 2500 km away from ar-Riadh!

[quote=“jean-pierre”]…
5) Anyway, the important question is :
I show you a text in arab (or whatever you call it).
Could you tell me for which country it is or it isn’t ???..[/quote]
If I showed you a Latin text, could you tell me where or for which country it was written? You and I have to see it before we can say!


#6

Mon cher Hans,
Thanks from your explanations but:

A)

  • in Paris, Normandy, South of France and so on we talk the same language:
    French.
    It means the accent is different but the words are the same.
    (I am not talking of the dialects).
  • Even in Belgian or in Switzerland, it is French, eccept for a very very few words.
    The example of nonante instead of quatre vingt is coming from the fact it is old (not too old !! 100 years about) french.
  • Even in Canada it is the same (300 to 400 years old french language).

I think you agree with that.

B) regarding Lebanese language the difference in words is so important than, even 25 years after having, as student, shared 3 years with Libanese people, when I hear some guy talking about regular things (asking a cigarette, or water and so on) I can tell you at once if they are Lebanese or from other parts (Marocco, Algeria, Lybie).

If at my level (which is not close from zero, but really zero !) I can detect such differences in my very very poor Lebanese vocabulary, it means than a guy with knowledge will detect hundred and hundred of different words.

And this as nothing to see with different accents as in differents parts of France or old French language used in Canada or Belgium.

C) I would rather compare that to German and the special german language they speak in Switzerland.
Or French to Italian or even to Romanian.

Same roots but different languages.

For example I have right now a Romanian ctges catalogue and I can tell you I don’t need a translator for 90% of the words.

D) Anyway it is not the topic, and of course you need a text to know from which country it is coming from.
I have put the text but you have answered me before seing my other post I think.

JP


#7

PS : I don’t find the picture of the writting I have posted.
I must have made an error.
Here it is.
jp


#8

“Arabic” is both a Language and a script system. The Languange spoken by different areas will change, but the script basically remains the same.
So after centuries of Islamic expansion, nations under the Star and Crescent spoke Arabic (with their local peculiarities) but all wrote using the same script…so a book written by a Moroccan (such as Ibn Baraka) could be read by any educated Arabic speaker over the whole islamic world.

The problems arose when nations which already had a well developed NON Arabic language , such as the Turks and the Persians, adopted the Arabic script under Islam…then you have the development of characters which don’t exist in “Normal” Arabic.
This was one reason that Ataturk, in 1928, decreed the adoption of the Western (Latin) Alphabet (with Turkish diacritical marks) to better render the Turkic Language. The Turkish language had become very difficult to render properly with the basic Arabic script characters

Pakistanis do not speak Arabic…they speak Urdu, which is a Local variation of Hindi, but saddled with an Islamic-origin Arabic script (India was controlled by the Islamic Moghul empire for centuries.)

Example, I have Pakistani friends, who in greeting say “wa-salam”, but understand if you use the Indian (Hindi) Greeting of “Namaste”. A proper Arabic speaker would use “salaam- aliekum”. Of course, any Muslim, of whatever native language, will understand and reply in kind if you greet them with the standard Arabic greeting.

There is a similar conundrum with what westerners call “Chinese”; There is one written ideographic language, but many spoken languages, some inter-related, others wholly unintelligible to other speakers…
So when the TV News is in the National Language (Putonghua–or “Mandarin”–itself a particular dialect of Shandong and Beijing) the text is renderd in standard Chinese characters as subtitles, so that it is understood instantly by the Cantonese, the Hokkien, the Fukien, etc, etc other language speakers through-out China.

Getting back to Arabic: Whilst Arabic as it is spoken on the Arabian peninsula is considered the Pure form (or classical Islamic Arabic), the “dialect” of Cairo is considered to be the General Standard Arabic of the Middle East, and has been since the middle ages. probably due to the fact that the major Islamic Universities were based there.
I have Arabic-speaking friends who say that one can pick a Moroccan from a Syrian, simply by how they speak; This is a natural result of local languages, sometimes centuries old, being over-ridden by a new language; the new Language adopts some of the usages and sound peculiarities of the older local language.

The same has occurred with “Colonial” English over the last few centuries; its diversification into all sorts of creoles and national varieties is “the nature of the beast”.
This diversity is both in Space and Time.

Argentinians of Piedmontese origin speak a slightly different dialect from their relatives living in Italy ( and this is simply over a 80-100 year period.)

I found the same thing in 1975, on going to Piedmont, that the dialect I had learnt on a visit as a child (1956) there, from my Grandmother and other (elderly) locals, set me apart when speaking with locals in 1975…they all said “You talk like our grandparents!!!”.

Of course, (JP) the Academie Francaise has always jealously guarded the “Purity” of the National French language…The textbook I used at High-school ( “Nos Voisins Francaises”) written originally in the 1940s for British school students, still served admirably for an Australian in 1964; but was completely useless when going to French New Caledonia in 1970…

In fact, my thorough knowledge of Piemontais in 1975 assisted me greatly in learning (re-learning) French on the spot ( Cote d’Azzure) over the next few years of my studies in Europe…only when I got to Paris, I had to relearn everything…or be labelled “a bad-mouthed foreigner/southerner”.
Parisians have alway believed they are the guardians of “Pure French”.

Enough disquisitions on Language…we should all speak and write Imperial Latin… (Not the shambles which passes for latin, devised in the Ecclesiastical middle ages).

Vale et Salute,
mihi amici peltastes et frombolieris, et ballistae operantur.

Doc AV ( Ballisticus Pedemontanus Quadralius in Gallia cis-Padana)
Australia.


#9

Thanks Doc,

What I understand is :

  • all the arabic countries use the same arabic characters for the writting
  • some of them , when their initial language was not arabic, need to add special characters
  • all their citizens know how to read and writte in classic arab
  • to speak they use their own language which is more or less close to the classic arab

Is it that ?

Now , to come back to the subject, is it possible , from the text shown, to know for which country was this catalogue?

I understand it will not be possible to know, except if some characters don’t belong to classical arab.
Right ?

JP


#10

Cher Jean-Pierre,

In answer to your questions:

(a) The general Arabic script is uniform throughout the Arabic speaking world; although, just as in Western Languages, the are, historically, different “Fonts” or designs of the script, which, to the un-informed, may seem to be different…just as in Gothic English, or German “Fraktur” script.

(b) Correct, as the sounds inj the "native " language was not represented by an existing Arabic script character.

© Not necessarily…some may know only sufficient Arabic to comprehend the Koran (or Quran), which must be read in Arabic to fully understand it.
It depends on the level of education of the people concerned…a lot of third world countries in Saharan Africa would fit this classification. It also depends on the level of penetration of Arabic into the speaking language of the People concerned…for instance, Swahili is spoken by a very large number of Central and Eastern Africans, because it is a “lingua franca” comprising words and concepts of Arabic and also native tongues from that area; and Swahili can be written in both Arabic and Roman characters… but by and large, it is more likely for a Swahili speaker to know English or French, than to know Arabic, beyond that necessary to understand the Koran.( The majority of Swahili speakers are Muslim, with the remainder being Christians of some description.)

(d) Correct. Colloquial speech developed over the centuries will have an Arabic structure, but may (will) contain many words of Pre-Arabic origin.

As to your question regarding the script shown, I do see it is standard Arabic script, of both hand written and typographical style; it would probably be readable right throughout the Arabic world. But I don’t know Arabic script at all (in translation/transliteration) to know where-abouts it comes from.
I can only interpret Numbers in Arabic ( and determine to origin of the “Font” due to the particular variations in integer characters from 1 to 9 and zero).
Regards
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#11

Thanks a lot Doc,

  1. I often asked you how you can know so many things in different domains but you never replied.
    No problem, keep your secret.

  2. About the arab text, it is evident for people starting to know me (with all my blemishs !) , I know perfectly the answer.

98 % sure but I want to be 100 % sure.

  1. I will put picture with numbers if this can help.

Thanks a lot

JP


#12


#13

Looks like Standard Arabic Font to me…secret, the form of the “5” (o), the 4 (squiggly E, like a Greek Sigma) and the “6” (7). EG, in Farsi oriented script (used in Iran, and some Central Asian Republics) these numbers are slightly (or markedly) different.

Numbers start at “310” and finish at “500”. Note that even though this script reads from Right to left, the Complete numbers are read from left to right.

As to the encyclopaedic extent of my knowledge ( so-called) I have read all my life, in half a dozen languages…and those things which interested me stuck there in the dark recesses of my memory…in fact anything to do with Guns, Trains, Engineering in general, and also the finer arts (Drama, Sculpture, Archaeology, etc etc. and of course Languages. Although in this latter, I have a “soupcon” of a lot, but fluency in only four. (English, Italian French and Spanish with a bit of effort…and of course Piedmontais, which I can also write correctly.(lots of funny sounds, just like Provencalo (Langue d’oc).
A Loss of short term memory capability due to Radiation in my youth has made some learning more difficult, but the ability is there if I set my mind to it. After all, I took a Law Degree (JD) at the age of 55, so I am not that far gone. I even surprised my self…

regards,
Doc AV


#14

OK doc

We will try to find another approach to the problem.

Which arabic country was in 1910 enough civilized to order directly ammo from European manufacturers?

Turkey and what else ?
jp


#15

Firstly, I will forgive your Gallic Arrogance, JP.

Most Arabic speaking areas in 1910 were “civilised” and had been since the late midle ages.It was only the Western superiority complex which considered them to be “uncivilised”…some certainly were, but they were better than a lot of other areas of the world (in 1910)…and some of these “uncivilised” areas were controlled by the “paragons” of western civilisation, Britain and France!!!

For Western eyes, the only “Power” (although quite unstable) in the 1910 world, which was Muslim, was the Ottoman Empire (the “Sick Man of Europe”)

All the other Islamic areas were either vassals to Istanbul, or Colonies of the Europeans (Britain, France, Italy); Persia was a backwater, influenced by the Russians to the north, the Ottomans to the West, and British India to the South East.

SO the only Islamic nation with major independant Trade contacts with Europe and the USA was Turkey. The History of its Shipping, Military and other Industries show that these connections started in the late 1700s ( Swedish Armaments,Shipping) through the 1800s ( products of the British, German and US Industrial revolution) and Turkey’s Military alliance against Russia (the Crimean War) with Britain, France and Sardinia-Piedmont ( the fore-runner of Italy).

IN 1895, Persia did order some M1895 Mausers from Oberndorf; but their script ( Arabic) was of a distinct nature (as I have previously mentioned) due to the script being adapted to a NON-Arabic language (Farsi…a language descended from ancient Persian, going back to the days of Darius and Xerxes-- 500-400BC). There are also typographical differences between Farsi and standard Arabic script, most notable in the design of the numbers.
(“5” is an inverted heart shape, “4” is an inverted “g” design, and there are other minor differences. As to the “letter” shapes, there are some differences there as well.

So if you are looking at a probably customer for European Products in 1910, I would say Turkey, if you have a copy of the script.

One must take into account that a lot of the merchants working in Turkey were not Turks, but Greeks, Italians and French; they were also multi-lingual, French being the language of most trade with Europe out of the Ottoman Empire, as well as the language of International Diplomacy in the area. The Greeks of Anatolia had been there since before the occupation of Constantinople (1453); Some say they had been there since before Alexander the Great…and Greece itself was a Vassal province to the Ottoman Empire up to 1824, and Salonika [ Thessaloniki] (the birthplace of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk) was Turkish till about 1910 (lost in one of the Balkan Wars).
This is evidenced in the part name “Hadzi” or “Hadjis” in some Greek family names…a sign that in the Ottoman past, that family’s members had made the Pilgrimage to Mecca (the “Hajj”) for which a devout Muslim was obliged to attempt at least once in his life, and which on completion, could append “Haji” to his name as a sign to other Muslims that he had fulfilled one of the most important of the five Pillars of Islam.( Prayer five times a day, Almsgiving, The Fast of Ramadan, the Pilgrimage to Mecca, and Jihad ( the “struggle” for the faith, whether personal or communal–often misinterpreted as being the spread of the faith by the sword…when it actually means the philosophical struggle to maintain the faith against all temptations).

Regards,
Doc AV


#16

Hi Doc,

  1. Nothing arogant, just basic.
    (Excatly the opposite of politically correct which is a proof of weakness)

What I call civilised means : able (in these times) to have phones, telegraph, to have foreign representatives and banks and so on

The right word would be industrialised I agree. Sorry to have chocked you.

  1. I think you must make a confusion between a civilisation which has been at its apogee during the middle age and how it was at the beginning of the 20th century. My sources are surely different than yours.

Don’t think I have no culture.
I can tell you things you perfectly know :

  • our figures are coming from arab figures
    and some less known:
  • the way we make multiplication is coming from the arab way,
  • the mathematical matrix are coming from arabic calcul,
  • and even what we call algorithm is coming from the name of the famous arab mathematician Abdallāh Muhammad ibn Musa whose traductions brought arithmetic in Europe in the 9th century.

Arab countries were great during the middle age, I agree, but nof after.
Excatly like Greek or Roman empire which after their apogee started their decadence.
Excatly like France, Germany, England which were at their apogee just before 1914, lost almost all because of WWI, and were finished after WWII.
Any society goes up and down. It is history.
I perfectly know it is not politically correct to say that, but it is the reality.

Anyway, when you say : "some were better than a lot of other areas of the world in 1910"
I agree also with you. There was worse, even in some European countries.

  1. “For Western eyes, the only “Power” (although quite unstable) in the 1910 world, which was Muslim, was the Ottoman Empire (the “Sick Man of Europe”) . So the only Islamic nation with major independant Trade contacts with Europe and the USA was Turkey”

I agree also.
It is was I thought, but I always prefer to have opinion of someone with knowledege better than me !

Because of you I learned many things:

  • the way the europeans used to call Turkey
  • and, if I don’t mistook, despite the fact the arabs writte from right to left, the figures are written the figures the other way, aren’t they?

Talking with people always brings you more knowledge in many domains, I like that.

  1. As you said , it is not persian because of the typographical differences.

  2. “So if you are looking at a probably customer for European Products in 1910, I would say Turkey, if you have a copy of the script.”

  3. Conclusion :
    The fact you confirmed me about Turkey and the added explanations about impossibility to be Persian, erase the 2 % doubt I had.

My catalogue is a very rare 1910 price list from SFM for Turkey.
Here is the front cover (in fact the back cover !).

(Note the hand wroten name “Turquie” at the top of the page which, with added documents, gave me a 98 % probability).

One funny thing is they seem (at least at this time) not tu use bold caracters.Thanks Doc !

JP

.