Auction #17

Hello Pete,
Good job re the new auction! Couple of nice rounds there.
…just want to ask you reg. the lot no.594 - some kind of miracle 8.8 mm subcaliber. As i’m from Czech Republic with quite good connection to S&B - i would say - it’s a nice “garage job with long legend” 🧐☝️ …S&B factory never produced anything like this. Another scarce XPL with zero value with one target only - to grab the money from horny collectors 🤠. Same like Krejci Kutna Hora products and several others doing this dirty business.

Oh well, thought possibly it was as listed and an oddball I needed. This is why it is good to ask questions before bidding, as you suggest.
Sent my bid sheets off today.

Thanks again.

Joe

Some corrections or new information: Lot 59 is a .46 Remington. Lot 205 is a .44-90 or 105 Remington Creedmoor 25/8" necked. Lot 226 is Boxer primed. Lot 279 the headstamp is W C C 5 6, not W C W 5 6. Lot 593 is a Polish not German, pre 7.9x107 experimental anti-tank. Lot 831 is a Winchester .46 Remington Short board dummy.

thanks Joe

594
I can’t answer your question other than to say it came from a trusted European consignor. I could not find any reference to it anywhere so i listed it as it is. I would add just because it has a S&B headstamp that does not mean it was made by them. That the case walls are thick could be a special order or something those that you talked to are unaware of.

That said I can not say with any certainty it is not a “garage job” or that it is a factory, but perhaps not S&B experimental.

Thanks for offering your valued opinion.

As it is questionable I’ll be e-mailing the consignor and asking him about it.

I’m sorry to hear that it seems like a lot of faking is going on on your side of the pond.

Pete,
I have been facing several times, that the item came from trusted source or the info about the “secret” project is from trusted source and the reality was the garage job with very limited equipment & knowledge and bunch of lies supporting this unique cartridge. Even the fact i have proven that it’s not true (like recently the case with specific version of GR headstamp - showing 9mm Luger GR factory bunter from Limit factory)…still there’re people who do relay more on trusted collectors than the facts and evidence.

Just couple of technical comments to lot 594 - if the S&B case would be used (the brand new one) - for sure there won’t be the red seal - the case with sealant must come from commercial 9L cartridge pullled out. Looking to the case mouth - the case seems to have the normal case walls thickness - just the lathe turned projectile has the driving band in the area where seated in the case…and last comment - if you see the red paint on the “bullet” dauby painted by brush…even the legend from trusted source means nothing.🙄

No, no…it’s not so bad - if you put on table such a cartridge at Czech collectors meeting…you’ll will not sell it for more than $2…just as a curiosity 😃. Everybody knows it’s fake.

Cheers Tomas

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More than enough “fakery” on this side too, Pete…unfortunately.

Well I believe him, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
You are correct the case walls are not thicker than normal. I just compared to a normal S&B 9mm ball they seem the same thickness.

From him

“it is for a slowakian Sub machine gun, no fake with 9mm case, heavy bullet, made form turned brass, with tracer it was for a special silencer pistol, 4 different types of the cartridge shown up in th 1990ties,”

Just a question - why would a special silencer pistol, militarily used primarily for dispatching sentries, guard dogs, clandestine attacks on enemy VIPs, etc., need tracer ammunition. Seems like the trace showing up would be counter to the major purpose of such pistols, stealth.

Just a thought. I have no opinion on the cartridge on the S&B case, since I have never seen one, or any mention of such a cartridge before this thread.

John Moss

It is a little bit late to come on this problem, but after reading those lines, I realize that I’m still able to dowload catalog #15 today.
I explain what I think has happened to me and maybe to John:
When I discover Pete’s auctions three years ago, I created a favorite’s shortcut and three years later this shortcut still bring me to the auction happened three years ago…
below it is:

John, only reasons I can think of for tracer examples for the round in question would be for testing (to determine POA vs POI) and training (to develop point-shooting skills for the weapon).

Good 👍…at the beginning the 8.8mm subcaliber, now the new story with silencer pistol…😂😂…what will be next?
Should you have any basic ballistic knowledge - you can estimate that such a projectile might have muzzle velocity of “thrown stone”- no sillencer needed. This pattern is usually used (at subcalibers) to imitate the fired rocket trajectory…definitely not for sinenced PDW.

And if the thrusted source is from Slovakia, where hundreds of these home made scarce projects are made (always lathe turned creatures loaded to standard pistol calibers) - it’s enough to know.

Would be good to disclose the name of this guy to inform all collectors who’s marketing this scrap not loose their money.
Tomas

John - a silenced pistol would be primarily a short-range weapon. You would not need tracers to adjust POA and POI. Target shooters using adjustable sight pistols do this all the time using simply a range-scope to observe POI on targets and if off, simply adjust the sights. Fixed-sight pistols present their own problems if not properly factory regulated, but still can offer some adjustment, if the sights are in dovetails. The front sight can also be filed down, if needed, but that is a one way street, unless the front sight is also dovetailed and various heights of sights are available.

Absolutely no need for tracers for testing pistols for POI.

For training in developing point-shooting skills, tracers can, under some circumstances, be useful, but who would need or use a “special silenced pistol” for un-aimed fire? That would have to be a dire emergency, with no time to select tracers unless their weapons were loaded with them for some other reason, none of which I can think of.

John

Hi John
I’d like to relate the below to you. Written before your post above this was seen.
John your comment about tracers is interesting. Jon’s reply was also. A gentleman who I think I can call a friend is named L. James Sullivan, he was one of two who miniaturized the AR 10 for Gene Stoner & created the M-16, AR 15 rifles. He has at last count 317 US patents on guns and 9 guns in production. His latest AR was tested by DELTA , three guns 20,000 rounds fired in each in both full & semi-auto fire & not one, allow me to repeat that, NOT ONE failure to feed or fire. All this is leading into his latest development for military use which is a PDW, It is about the size of an old Webley revolver and to be carried on the hip. It is fully automatic, 9mm para with tracer, & will have a 30 rnd mag (of his design). He envisions the use of it as drawing it, turning it 90º and bending the elbow to control the spread as horizontal fire & just emptying the magazine. Goes to Jon’s comment POA. So here is a gun which I have seen actual drawings of but as he has not found funding to build / produce it, it’s as far as it’s gotten, but it DOES use tracers, he feels that to be important.

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Thomas

I wrote most of below this before reading your post but he is not from Slovakia.

I don’t know you or your experience in the collecting field or if you have had any actual experience working in the ammunition industry. Yet you publicly accuse me of selling fakes without hearing the other side & brag about uncovering a Roth fake, which I must admit I’m unaware of.

The sole basis of your accusation is that your unnamed connection at S&B didn’t hear of it. That it could be from someone using S&B brass apparently never entered the process. Nor perhaps that this person didn’t know everything that goes on now or in the past.? Or that perhaps the brass could have been acquired from a source once or even twice removed from S&B. That is not possible?

Then we have your technical points about the red case mouth, you seem to think it was on a case & it case was reloaded or that because it was “daubed” on it couldn’t be right. In my experience having had conversations with people in the industry doing the actual developmental work. This sort of hand daubing of colors has happened (look at .50 BMG target marker cartridges) and will continue, I can give several other occurrences of non-conventional use or non-typical components that found their way into ammunition development before production, but not now or here. That these are said to be tracers in may just have been easier to mark them this way than to paint, I’ve no idea, but to discount it because it wasn’t machine applied is not realistic. However I can understand as I said from the amount of fakers currently going on it certainly raises a flag. It did to me & that is why it was photographed the way it was.

Now your considering the ballistic effects, it is apparently a “thrown stone” without your having seen the firearm or the bullet constriction, but your a ballistic expert?

About the story that comes with it. 1st you judged it without hearing the story. 2nd sometimes all you get is a story. Years ago I bought a 5.56 SPIW pistol round from someone in the industry. Then when Paul Smith published his book & it included a slightly different specimen & I then had conformation. I have other examples of this MUCH, MUCH later confirmation of something I bought, just on a TRUSTED story.

Yet you judge & PUBLICLY denounce me as a seller of fakes without hearing the story. Shame on you.

I have been dealing with this gentleman for years, I have seen nothing to doubt anything he gives me to sell, and it’s been some very rare items along with some just unusual items. When he gave me this no story came with it, like everything else he has given me no story, here it is, end of the story. As you see I had to ask him for more information about it. Yet your premature judgment because you asked one person who works at S&B about this without any background knowledge, like perhaps a time fame, about it, you publicly denounce it and me. I do have a reputation which I think is somewhat respected although I lay no claims be being perfect & that is why I publish my mistakes.

All this said, I do feel you did not give me or my seller a fair chance but publicly condemned not only this round in question but any and all I’ve sold, sell now, or in the future.

And now you want me to publicly post his name so you can call him a faker ? It would be unprofessional to tell anyone the name of any of my consignors.

If you don’t want to buy it then don’t bid on it simply as that, but to claim something you know nothing about is a fake before knowing anything about it does you, mostly you, me and every other collector a disservice.

Pete - Thanks for your comments. However, I didn’t relate my belief that tracers made no sense as a general comment. It was specifically aimed at their use to establish any discrepancy between point of aim (POA) and point of impact (POI), and that with a “special silenced pistol.” That made no sense to me as a shooter who has “zeroed” literally dozens and dozens of handguns using nothing more than a range scope to establish the amount of sight correction needed, and in the case of established point of impact, such as with my 2" barrel Colt Cobra (fixed sights) and other self-defense guns, at distances so short I could establish the difference without any enhancement of my vision.

I definitely do understand the use of tracers for many obvious reasons in SMGs, MGs and even occasionally in rifles. My first job in the army was assistant machinegunner for .30 caliber LMGS 1919A4 and A6. Never had to use one in combat, but did in field training, and of course the tracers were a huge help in getting a gun on target without have to screw around with the traversing gear and sight adjustments, especially with the bipod-mounted M1919A6. Of course, the traversing gear, while connecting to the gun, could not be used on the A6 unless it was mounted on the tripod They can perform the same vital service in quick target acquisition in a sub-gun of pistol caliber as well, albeit at shorter ranges.

I appreciate though your mention though of L, J. Sullivan. I met Eugene Stoner once, after some correspondence on a coated .223 round he was using (and even got one from him although I don’t recall much about the cartridge now. I had just started collecting the .223/5.56 and after seeing a line of experimental French rounds at a Chicago show, about 50 different and averaging 25.00 each in price, when I went home I sold my little collection to Steve Fuller! I could see where it was going and opted out due to my major commitment to auto pistol rounds. Still I love the kind of information in your response above. By the way, as to a lack of malfunctions, a dear friend of mine was a Platoon leader in VN with the 173rd Airborne. They got the black rifle on Okinawa before deploying to VN, and found what it could do and what it couldn’t. Being highly disciplined troops with good weapons discipline, the experience no significant problems in country with the M16, and they were the first full Army unit to have it in VN (by that, I mean other than some Special Forces and MAAGV guys). The problems came later with ill-advised use by the ammo makers of ball powder, and with very poor discipline - weapons and otherwise - in many units of the Army, I am sad to say. Pretty much all a matter of Congressional Record.

Thanks for your comments.

Edited to clarify a point about the MG traversing gear.

John

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Pete,
I’m “nobody” living circa 30km from Vlasim (S&B factory) with couple of friends working/used to work there…
Radek Musil (General Dir./CEO)
Vaclav Malimanek (ammo development expert working there for last 40Y)
Josef Rybarik (ammo development expert - holder of several patents like ELZA (el.primer for 20x102, .50cal primer etc…) working there for more than 35Y
Vlasta Libra (ammo development expert eg. Snail cartridges in several calibers and other patent holder.)
Lada Horky - chief of State security service supervising S&B ammo plant for 25Y before 1989…from this guy i have starting bunch of cartridges in my collection…he convinced me to collect cartridges.
And several other people working there during last 40Years…
None of these people never heard about the miracle project you’re referring to.

What’s your “trusted source” you’re always referring to?🧐

…on the other hand…I used to work at ZVI armory as a commercial dir. - during my leadership the Kevin pistol in 9mmM has been developed, and marketed; I have developed my proprietary caliber 32 ZVI intended for this pistol (that was private project - only 3 pistols have been made); I was responsible for loading plant of 12.7x108 for Falcon anti material rifle with Raufoss MP projectiles, 20x102 all bullet line of ammo for Plamen aircraft twin barrel cannon (similar to GSh 23 but lighter and more compact), for loading 30x173 for Bushmaster Mk.44 cannon (Pandur armoured vehicle) and several other projects + trade with all kind of military equipment during those years.
Therefore getting crazy if somebody showing/selling the “scap with legend” and people spending money for worthless stuff.
Tomas

Hi Thomas
Very impressive creds.

However I still can’t, and am not about to publicly publish or privately reveal a consignors name. Just not professional.

I am more than willing to listen if you have proof this is a fake, other than you think it is.

Did you ever consider this might just be legitimate and that the brass was not sourced directly from S&B. Or that from the 1990s these folks you name might not be aware of the project?

I 'm exploring other avenues here to find more about this.

The following information from a guy who I have known for about 15 years who is in this business and is familiar with this item.

Lew

Dear Lew,

I am glad to hear from you. I hope you are fine.

Regards the cartridge I can tell you following info.

The cartridge is not fake. The cartridge was used for aiming (training) weapon which was intended for Anti Tank Non Guided Rocket RPTZ-96 (project code - ZUBR). The project has been canceled in 90´s years due to financial problems. Only prototypes were produced.

Cartridge consist of standard brass cartridge case 9mm Luger (standard S&B production) and CNC machined brass projectile with tracer. Ballistic trajectory of the projectile comply with the reactive warhead of the ZUBR AT weapon. On development contributed Prototypa -ZM s.r.o company in Brno and head of project and producer was Adamovské Strojírny a.s. Adamov (town 20 km far from Brno city). Cartridges were packed and sealed in plastic bag (3 pcs).

Enclosed you can find info about AT weapon ZUBR and some photos from my collection.

Estimated number of the cartridges among collectors will be tens pieces.

I hope that this info helps.

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Here is a web site which also provide information on this weapon!

https://www.armedconflicts.com/CZE-RPTZ-96-t85314

This is why i never throw away a “FAKE”. If I think an item is fake, I put it in a special box, and quite a few times I have been able to take a real treasure out of that box and add it to my collection.

I can give some real horror stories of great items with real historical significance which were destroyed because somebody decided, all in good faith that they were fake!

I have also seen cases where the label of fake was applied in bad faith in order to pick up an item cheap!!!

The above posts provide an excellent case study showing how speculation can reinforce the misidentification of an item as a fake!

Cheers,
Lew

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Lew, you have also showed the value of this site, and the knowledge of the IAA membership, in general.
Thanks!