Empty box. 5 cm x 6 cm or 2 x 2 1/4"
Google translate for Betaubungspatromed is anesthesia/numb.
Can anyone provide more information on cartridge use and pictures of cartridge and gun?
Empty box. 5 cm x 6 cm or 2 x 2 1/4"
Bob, these are actually cattle killers.
Though it works with humans too as we had a case here in Germany some years back where a farmer disposed of his wife.
Hmm, these then are no cattle killers!
Wonder what this is then.
Betaubungspatron literally means stuncartridge from my bad memory of German, so cattle killers fit but not with Lars cartridge, that’s for sure.
I think the Geco “Betaubungs Patrone” a variant on the “Scheintod Patrone” .
The German-made Scheintod pistol was a pepper-box that fired—of all things—pepper; a cloud of pain that would drop an assailant to his knees and not into his grave.
Normaly in Cal. 12m/m.
I have the impression that in the old days the use of all related terms was not as strict.
Kinda missleading us today.
r3o8 you are right.It is a kind of self defence cartridge, just as the Scheintodpatrone. It is not a cattle killer
Take a look at muzzle.de. In the section “Waffen” subsection"Signalwaffen" (yes, entirely in German, one should learn languages…) you find a description of a Knock-Out device, probably pre-WWII that shoots with the Geco cartridge. It seemed to be some self-defenceweapon at that time.
To my understanding the one shown by Lars/m89 is a CS (or similar) cartridge.
That is correct Alex
Here are some more…
CS is only used in the very more modern ones.
In the old times the filling was pepper and tabac dust…
See pics of gun and ammo.
I do also have a 12mm Scheintod-Revolver with 5 shot…Not so easy to carry :-)
There are also shorter pure Blank-Cartridges and also “Leucht” Patronen… (Flare and fireworks)
I think that EOD in his original identification of “cattle killer” is correct. These cartridges looked like blanks (brass case with folded mouth). In my opinion the small box shown in the first message would never be able to hold 10 cartridges of the “shotgun” type cartridges displayed later in this thread.
Typical devices were the “Kerner” and “Schermer” brands. On firing, a steel bolt (Schussbolzen) of about 10 mm diameter crushed the skull and penetrated about 75 to 90 mm from the front of the device (Viehbetäubungsapparat) into the brain of the cattle. A spring then retracted the steel bolt into the device.
In my view the “Scheintod” (seemingly dead) gas pistol has nothing to do with the Geco box.
This Geco-Box of the given size of 6x5cm holds certainly 10 cartridges of the 12mm Scheintodpatronen, as I have several guns and the approbriate ammoboxes (i.e. the above pictured one) for them…So I know exactly what was or is in this boxes…
Betäubungspatronen of the sort of Cattle Killers, or Schlachtpatronen are usually packed by the 50, or by 25, not by 10 !!
What you mean by folded or open-mouted ammo for the Kerner and others are in fact “Captive Bolt” apparats with their approbriate ammo, made in boxes of which each gives the name of the Captive bolt Company, i.e. 50 Cartridges for Kerner, Schermer or Behrs Cattle-Killer. They where usually not (NOT) distributed under the name of the actual cartridge maker (Schermer, Kerner, nor Behrs have ever made their own cartrides, they where all distributed only under their brandnames, but made by RWS/Geco, DWM and S&B…
There are other Cattle-Killers with bullets (like 7,65 -.32 ACP- from Kynoch) and for example the 7,5 swiss ones, or the 7,8 and 9mm and 9,6mm from S&B, RWS and others with zinc bullets (all in 25rounds boxes)…but they have nothing to do, with the box pictured by Mr.Ruebel…which shows the box for the blue Geco 12mm Betäubungspatrone with Tabacdust-filler…
The pictured box contained 10 pieces of 49mm Long 12mm Scheintodpatronen in 2 rows like later pictured,so please do not muddy the Waters for the sake of future collectors
Here some real cattle-Killer boxes:
and here the box with pistol and an area with ammo in the size of 5,5x6cm to show that the 12mm ammo fits into this size of a box
Thank you for the detailed explanation.